Finally decided to sell my huge and extremely heavy 15 inch bass bins and huge tops due to always having to hire a van for discos,and the 'last straw' injuring my groin due to lifted extremely heavy 50 kg bass bins down a flight of stairs.
Well as I only play dnb and reggae in small venues with a crowd of 100 people max i might as well make some lightweight bass bins and midtops!
I'm thinking a 12 inch Eminence Delta 12LF or Eminence Lab12 in compact bandpass cabinet for bass in a seperate cab.
And a Eminence Gamma or Beta 10 or 8 and a Eminence APT80 for mid/high.With a pole btw the two.
Anyone going to help find some plans for such compact cabs,because all i've found was plans of 'monster' size cabs which i don't want!
I wonder also if those ready made 'lightweight' pa moulded polyproplene cabs with neodyium drivers in are actually are any good?
Well as I only play dnb and reggae in small venues with a crowd of 100 people max i might as well make some lightweight bass bins and midtops!
I'm thinking a 12 inch Eminence Delta 12LF or Eminence Lab12 in compact bandpass cabinet for bass in a seperate cab.
And a Eminence Gamma or Beta 10 or 8 and a Eminence APT80 for mid/high.With a pole btw the two.
Anyone going to help find some plans for such compact cabs,because all i've found was plans of 'monster' size cabs which i don't want!
I wonder also if those ready made 'lightweight' pa moulded polyproplene cabs with neodyium drivers in are actually are any good?
The drivers you pointed out won't have very much extension, or in the case of the Lab12, not very much efficiency. Instead, I would say to use two of this woofer per side: Eminence Omega-Pro 12A. It's $170 each, or $160 each for 4+, and will handle plenty of power (700w RMS apiece, 1400w for each dual-12 bass bin) while getting you down to 40 Hz (respectable), and with 4.8mm of Xmax, which you want. If you've got power, these will be able to put out what you want from them. It can be found at Parts Express.
Eminence Omega Pro 12A 12" Cast Frame Driver
You've got to admit, that's a massive magnet and frame. These things will last a long time, and offer positively punishing output for their size. Make sure you build these into a bass-reflex box. They won't really like a bandpass. They should be easier to move as well.
As far as tops go, I would look into the Eminence Beta-10CX driver. You could mount the APT-50 super tweeter in the back and then have time-aligned output with wide, smooth dispersion. You will need the APT3 adaptor and the pxb2-3k5 two-way crossover for this. All that stuff is at parts express, too.
If you want to make these look good, do expanded-metal grilles. There are places on the web that sell expanded metal. A quick search with Google should turn up what you are looking for. You can paint it with a paintbrush or leave it in its natural color. Use an active crossover between the bass bins and tops.
Eminence Omega Pro 12A 12" Cast Frame Driver
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
You've got to admit, that's a massive magnet and frame. These things will last a long time, and offer positively punishing output for their size. Make sure you build these into a bass-reflex box. They won't really like a bandpass. They should be easier to move as well.
As far as tops go, I would look into the Eminence Beta-10CX driver. You could mount the APT-50 super tweeter in the back and then have time-aligned output with wide, smooth dispersion. You will need the APT3 adaptor and the pxb2-3k5 two-way crossover for this. All that stuff is at parts express, too.
If you want to make these look good, do expanded-metal grilles. There are places on the web that sell expanded metal. A quick search with Google should turn up what you are looking for. You can paint it with a paintbrush or leave it in its natural color. Use an active crossover between the bass bins and tops.
Hi Bull,
The drivers you're looking at seem a little light weight.
If you have some decent power, I'd think the Omega Pro would be a good choice. I wonder about the 500rms on the Delta, looking at the motor and coil.
If you've ever thought about Selenium:
12"
Or this
I have the 1507 QCF in the Altec A7 cabinet and it sounds fine. Beer bounces off them!
Cal
The drivers you're looking at seem a little light weight.
If you have some decent power, I'd think the Omega Pro would be a good choice. I wonder about the 500rms on the Delta, looking at the motor and coil.
If you've ever thought about Selenium:
12"
Or this
I have the 1507 QCF in the Altec A7 cabinet and it sounds fine. Beer bounces off them!
Cal
Don't PA drivers spend a little more time outside their linear range than hi-fi drivers on account of huge mechanical Xmax but low electrical Xmax? We may run into trouble on this forum because in the hi-fi world, running a driver outside its linear range is extremely taboo. For PA applications, especially subbass, it can be tolerated to a much greater extent. This is all going to depend on whether people here on this (Hi-Fi) forum can think outside the box and understand we're not trying to design the bass section for the successor to the Wilson Audio X-1 but something whose sole design consideration is getting the MOST out of a 12" driver while keeping costs, enclosure size, and required amplifier power reasonable. This is designed for high output at low frequencies, not extreme super-fidelity at low frequencies.
The Xmech (excursion limit) is 20.8mm. Also, you might consider putting a steep highpass/low-cut on these at 45 or 50Hz to make sure you get a lot of output without pushing things too much. 50Hz seems high, but the Peavey SP 118X (single 18", vented) only goes down to 50Hz.
The Xmech (excursion limit) is 20.8mm. Also, you might consider putting a steep highpass/low-cut on these at 45 or 50Hz to make sure you get a lot of output without pushing things too much. 50Hz seems high, but the Peavey SP 118X (single 18", vented) only goes down to 50Hz.
hi
bull - leaving out hi fi - as you have mentioned the approach to PA is totally different ,
i think this would be help ful - firstly for a bandpass you will need drivers which need a lot of power handling and linear x- max as escursions need to be larger
this has place for sound reinforcement not PA
the two are most often than not mixed up
for your needs the mid - bass drivers you have chosen are good enough - only dont mount them in compact bandpass - go for a front firing cabinet - ported - compact , and use an active c/o below 300 / 250 hz , you will get good spl - there will be no doubling or booming and a good bass kick
now here is the trick - if - in your application - you can mount your tops close to the bass bins - then
you can use a mid bass for the tops too and high pass them above 120 / 130 hz
that way youll have more bass energy , with no phasing probs
i have done compact band pass they dont go that low as in high - fi when it comes to soun reinforcement -
where i had to modify jbl 2242 s demagnetise the motor structure
- add an exta magnet
- add a new extenede pole
- add a double spider
- change the surround to a m 3 large roll one
- to top it all make a new type of a basket to house all that - and yet be compact
only after all this mods - and dedicated - mosfet amps of 1200 w rms at 8 ohms were we able to reach as low in sound reinforcement - with compact band pass enclosures
next your other qs about neo mags and lt weight designs ,
they are very good all perform - in real life applications - provided you go in for a set from JBL or EV ets ,
its not easy to mould those cabinets we have been trying for some time in India and they need dome more mods (though the expense is not justified - in India as better pyl cabs can be made here since labour ets is cheap)
as long as you get a standard company speaker all are good
suranjan
transducer design engineer
bull - leaving out hi fi - as you have mentioned the approach to PA is totally different ,
i think this would be help ful - firstly for a bandpass you will need drivers which need a lot of power handling and linear x- max as escursions need to be larger
this has place for sound reinforcement not PA
the two are most often than not mixed up
for your needs the mid - bass drivers you have chosen are good enough - only dont mount them in compact bandpass - go for a front firing cabinet - ported - compact , and use an active c/o below 300 / 250 hz , you will get good spl - there will be no doubling or booming and a good bass kick
now here is the trick - if - in your application - you can mount your tops close to the bass bins - then
you can use a mid bass for the tops too and high pass them above 120 / 130 hz
that way youll have more bass energy , with no phasing probs
i have done compact band pass they dont go that low as in high - fi when it comes to soun reinforcement -
where i had to modify jbl 2242 s demagnetise the motor structure
- add an exta magnet
- add a new extenede pole
- add a double spider
- change the surround to a m 3 large roll one
- to top it all make a new type of a basket to house all that - and yet be compact
only after all this mods - and dedicated - mosfet amps of 1200 w rms at 8 ohms were we able to reach as low in sound reinforcement - with compact band pass enclosures
next your other qs about neo mags and lt weight designs ,
they are very good all perform - in real life applications - provided you go in for a set from JBL or EV ets ,
its not easy to mould those cabinets we have been trying for some time in India and they need dome more mods (though the expense is not justified - in India as better pyl cabs can be made here since labour ets is cheap)
as long as you get a standard company speaker all are good
suranjan
transducer design engineer
I doubt 12" PA drivers will really have sufficient extension. Seems to me that 15" drivers are more up to the task. Perhaps you should consider carefully the actual construction and the way in which they are to be moved.
- more bracing allows you to make them thinner and lighter
- PVC pipes are lighter than MDF shelf vents
The other approach is to use HT style subwoofer drivers like the Lab12 which have more output in the right box for their size given their large displacement. They need either a bandpass or a horn. I suspect a horn may mean the box is too large and heavy, but perhaps a scaled down version of the labhorn with one driver and designed for an F3 of 40 - 50 Hz.
- more bracing allows you to make them thinner and lighter
- PVC pipes are lighter than MDF shelf vents
The other approach is to use HT style subwoofer drivers like the Lab12 which have more output in the right box for their size given their large displacement. They need either a bandpass or a horn. I suspect a horn may mean the box is too large and heavy, but perhaps a scaled down version of the labhorn with one driver and designed for an F3 of 40 - 50 Hz.
BAM said:
Just because there are many PA sub cabinets in use that DO exceed Xmax substantially, doesn't mean that all PA users can or should tolerate this. PA and hi-fi should both be striving to reproduce audio accurately - PA SHOULD be hi-fi designed for a larger audience. As the overtones generated from exceeding Xmax in a sub are louder to the ear than the fundamental, then every effort should be directed towards ensuring this does not occur.
paulspencer said:
Very good results can be obtained with 12" speakers - it all comes down to coupling with the air. Even a single driver version of the Labhorn is still quite large (working on something along these lines myself). Probably the best compromise between size and efficiency would be a double tuned chamber bandpass box (6th order), especially if the desired bandwidth is fairly narrow.
Cheers
reply
I think i'll go with ported bass reflex instead of bandpass.Just hope the plans of the 12 inch box originally designed by Celestion to use their specific driver,which doesn't that model exsist anymore,work with my driver?
So how would I know if the Eminence Delta 12LF is suitable for a 50 Litre enclosure? with 1 port 62mm length?
As these specs of the cabinet are meant to be used with the Celestion S12 150CE which ain't made anymore!
So hope Eminence Delta 12LF is suitable for a 50 litre cabinet with [1] 62mm port?
Otherwise can someone find me a suitable pa bass driver if that ain't gonna work?
I think i'll go with ported bass reflex instead of bandpass.Just hope the plans of the 12 inch box originally designed by Celestion to use their specific driver,which doesn't that model exsist anymore,work with my driver?
So how would I know if the Eminence Delta 12LF is suitable for a 50 Litre enclosure? with 1 port 62mm length?
As these specs of the cabinet are meant to be used with the Celestion S12 150CE which ain't made anymore!
So hope Eminence Delta 12LF is suitable for a 50 litre cabinet with [1] 62mm port?
Otherwise can someone find me a suitable pa bass driver if that ain't gonna work?
hi
bull for all practical applications you can go in for the celestion design with the eminence , t/s para s are not that imp here - dont worry i am telling you so
and for the others in this forum who have a blind love for t/s para here is why
when a driver cone is moving - that is in real time all your t/s para s shift
well in good hi - fi drivers , this shift is minimised in the designing stage - lot of consideration is giver to all types off linearity to minimise this shift
and in down to earth - sound reinforcement and pa
the drivers are made to perform - spl / rugged / performance oriented
then a set of drivers in pa / pro audio
- for eg suppoce - lo drivers -
if i change a 2241 with a celestion bx 1402 (in a jbl box) it will yet perform well - no probs as both are designed for more or less the same performance oriented application
suranjan
bull for all practical applications you can go in for the celestion design with the eminence , t/s para s are not that imp here - dont worry i am telling you so
and for the others in this forum who have a blind love for t/s para here is why
when a driver cone is moving - that is in real time all your t/s para s shift
well in good hi - fi drivers , this shift is minimised in the designing stage - lot of consideration is giver to all types off linearity to minimise this shift
and in down to earth - sound reinforcement and pa
the drivers are made to perform - spl / rugged / performance oriented
then a set of drivers in pa / pro audio
- for eg suppoce - lo drivers -
if i change a 2241 with a celestion bx 1402 (in a jbl box) it will yet perform well - no probs as both are designed for more or less the same performance oriented application
suranjan
reply
As the shop is not having them Eminence drivers in shop anymore[useless Maplin] I bought some ready made pa cabs 2nd hand with simular drivers in!
The bass bins are made of 18 mm MDF and have 1x Eminence Delta 12 LF 300w rms[old version] with rubber surround.With [2] 4 inch diametre ports about 10 cm long.
No wadding whatsoever in the cabs.Very good large air core inductor but with lousy electrloytic capacitors.
The mid/tops are made of 18mm chipboard[grrr] and have 1x Eminence Gamma 10 200w rms[old version] and 1x Eminence APT150 Phenolic diapharm compression driver.
No wadding in these either,but the crossover is decent with a combination of polyproplene 600v caps and polyester caps and air core inductors.Except both the 20w resistors appear to look burnt unless thats cigarette tar,as they smell of cigarrette smoke?
They all 4 appear to work fine!
As the shop is not having them Eminence drivers in shop anymore[useless Maplin] I bought some ready made pa cabs 2nd hand with simular drivers in!
The bass bins are made of 18 mm MDF and have 1x Eminence Delta 12 LF 300w rms[old version] with rubber surround.With [2] 4 inch diametre ports about 10 cm long.
No wadding whatsoever in the cabs.Very good large air core inductor but with lousy electrloytic capacitors.
The mid/tops are made of 18mm chipboard[grrr] and have 1x Eminence Gamma 10 200w rms[old version] and 1x Eminence APT150 Phenolic diapharm compression driver.
No wadding in these either,but the crossover is decent with a combination of polyproplene 600v caps and polyester caps and air core inductors.Except both the 20w resistors appear to look burnt unless thats cigarette tar,as they smell of cigarrette smoke?
They all 4 appear to work fine!
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