I think the problem is my LR circuit. It sounds as if there is a huge drop in dB under 50 Hz. I have not got measurement equipment so I have to rely on listening tests. But my small 2-way loudspeaker with a Scan Speak 9700 and a Scan Speak 8546 seems to go deeper.
When I tested a Scan Speak 8545 it played at very deep levels and I am planning on trading all my 8546 drivers in to some 8545. I would possible get a better result with two 8545 per side in two seperate subwoofers.
By "punch" I was talking about sound pressure. They can give a huge SPL but not as deep as I hoped for. It should be possible to make them go deep by correcting my LR circuit, but I would think it would take a much more complex circuit if not an active one.
I am just not too kean on getting myself into complex/advanced circuits - I want to keep my circuits as simple as possible.
When I tested a Scan Speak 8545 it played at very deep levels and I am planning on trading all my 8546 drivers in to some 8545. I would possible get a better result with two 8545 per side in two seperate subwoofers.
By "punch" I was talking about sound pressure. They can give a huge SPL but not as deep as I hoped for. It should be possible to make them go deep by correcting my LR circuit, but I would think it would take a much more complex circuit if not an active one.
I am just not too kean on getting myself into complex/advanced circuits - I want to keep my circuits as simple as possible.
OK well dont give up hope to soon, when I get home Ill have a play with the scan drivers and active filters to and see what I can come up with. LSPcad makes this easy work, what volume of box are you using with the two scans? so i can model correctly. It may be that you dont actually require the whole Linkwitz transform to get the desired result, my XLS have EQ but not a linkwitz on it.
I'd suggest givin it a try if I can get something useful because if all it involves is altering a few resistors or capacitors then you'd rather do that I would have thought then trade em all and build a brand new set of boxes.
Oh and with regards to circuit complexity vs degredation of sound, yes I would agree that the simpler the better, but one transform on the bass section is not going to impinge in any way on the sound quality at all, unless its not working correctly.
So hang in there give my circuit a bash if it works then you have saved yourself a lot more work, and if it doesnt then at least you tried.
I'd suggest givin it a try if I can get something useful because if all it involves is altering a few resistors or capacitors then you'd rather do that I would have thought then trade em all and build a brand new set of boxes.
Oh and with regards to circuit complexity vs degredation of sound, yes I would agree that the simpler the better, but one transform on the bass section is not going to impinge in any way on the sound quality at all, unless its not working correctly.
So hang in there give my circuit a bash if it works then you have saved yourself a lot more work, and if it doesnt then at least you tried.
I wouldnt trade your kevlar ones for the carbonpapers. This is a mistake, both the drivers are high xmax devices and two kevs will have twice the radiating area then one Carbpap. Yes the QTS of the carb is higher then the kev so in suitable boxes for both the carb would play a bit lower, but this is what you are using the active circuit for. Hang in there!
I have used a 38,5 litres closed cabinet made from 22mm MDF (57x25x38) but it is propably closer to 35 litres with the internal matrix construction substracted. The volume was a suggestion from another hifi-guru.
I could of course add an acoustic valve or perhaps a port but if I add a port I propably need more volume.
I am using a simple filter without LR gainer - I do not know how to calculate the gainer circuit. I have tried but it sounds really weird...
I have a test CD I use for testing with sinus waves in different frequenzies. At 20 Hz and 30 Hz there is virtually no SPL but the drivers are "pumping". At 40 Hz I can begin to hear something but it is at a low SPL.
I could of course add an acoustic valve or perhaps a port but if I add a port I propably need more volume.
I am using a simple filter without LR gainer - I do not know how to calculate the gainer circuit. I have tried but it sounds really weird...
I have a test CD I use for testing with sinus waves in different frequenzies. At 20 Hz and 30 Hz there is virtually no SPL but the drivers are "pumping". At 40 Hz I can begin to hear something but it is at a low SPL.
Well these are two circuits I have come up with they are both optomised linkwitz at 20hz, so have and f6 of 20 and have a Q of linkwitz which is 0.5 i think if i remember correctly, it is entirely possible that i dont remember correctly though.
Give em a blast and see what happens, also what values are you using at the moment??
Give em a blast and see what happens, also what values are you using at the moment??
Attachments
I read this thread, as im considering the 18W as my midrange in a 35 L cabinet!
If you want output below 40 hz , you need a 80 L cabinet and a 10-12 " driver minimum. (otherwise excursion goes balistic) and to use a closed cabinet as a sub, you need 200 liters and x-max of 20 mm!!, if you want to have real output (<100db) below 40 hz...
but thats just my opinion... anyways the point being that a wented solution, and some larger drivers is the way to go (and do yourself a favor and build the cabinets larger)
those scanspeak is to nice to use as a sub, but good (the best?) for midbass (60-500) from what my experience tells me.
(my own bass cabinets is 185 L with sand and JBL 2226H drivers)
works like a charm. only problem is they need a room of more than 8 x 12 meters to have any justification at all. consider that when you build your subs for below 40Hz. And stereo is the only way to go for subs, in my opinion as well.)
good luck (and let me know if you have 2 18W drivers for sale!) i live in Herlev! i can buy for you a LARGE range of (bass) speakers direct via Monacor as a trade in, if you want... they have some nice 'blue line' pro speakers (~ JBL 2226) and some hi tech kevlar as well... PP sucks as a material for bass speakers!)
Anders
If you want output below 40 hz , you need a 80 L cabinet and a 10-12 " driver minimum. (otherwise excursion goes balistic) and to use a closed cabinet as a sub, you need 200 liters and x-max of 20 mm!!, if you want to have real output (<100db) below 40 hz...
but thats just my opinion... anyways the point being that a wented solution, and some larger drivers is the way to go (and do yourself a favor and build the cabinets larger)
those scanspeak is to nice to use as a sub, but good (the best?) for midbass (60-500) from what my experience tells me.
(my own bass cabinets is 185 L with sand and JBL 2226H drivers)
works like a charm. only problem is they need a room of more than 8 x 12 meters to have any justification at all. consider that when you build your subs for below 40Hz. And stereo is the only way to go for subs, in my opinion as well.)
good luck (and let me know if you have 2 18W drivers for sale!) i live in Herlev! i can buy for you a LARGE range of (bass) speakers direct via Monacor as a trade in, if you want... they have some nice 'blue line' pro speakers (~ JBL 2226) and some hi tech kevlar as well... PP sucks as a material for bass speakers!)
Anders
I have come to the conclusion that the 18w8546 is great for midrange, but for the deep bass it is just not well suited. Even with a Linkwitz-Grainer active filter it is not enough (for me anyway).
I do have two ekstra 18w8546 drivers but I am trying to trade them off for some other Scan Speak drivers. I live in Brønshøj so it is not far away from you.
I have not got any experience with Monacor drivers.
I do have two ekstra 18w8546 drivers but I am trying to trade them off for some other Scan Speak drivers. I live in Brønshøj so it is not far away from you.
I have not got any experience with Monacor drivers.
go to:
http://www.monacor.com/en/produkt_aufl_monacor.php?arthaupt=62&artunter=520
http://www.monacor.com/en/produkt_aufl_monacor.php?arthaupt=62&artunter=522
http://www.monacor.com/en/produktse...P-38A/300PA&bestellnummer=10.3390&uvp= 146,50
de har både high-end og low-end, PA-versioner (som faktisk er yderst velegnede til subs selvom de normalt spiller som bass/bass-midrange)
Pro enhederne er billige, og så er de konstrueret til at spille højt => lav forvrængning, som ellers er et særsyn i basenheder.
Scanspeak er kendt for at lave basenheder med lav forvrængning, men JBL's pro enhed har samme forvrænging målt ved dens maks effekt, 600 watt end scanspeaks basenheder har ved deres makseffekt = 1xx Watt!!,
Monacors sp-38 ligner JBL's men om kvaliteten er helt i top med JBL er svært at vurdere. men som sagt - selv om den ikke er helt ligeså god, tror jeg stadig den er bedre end 95% af alle komercielle/private enheder, (inkl scan-speak, hvis man skal spille relativ højt med dem).
ved ikke om du kender til JBL's 2226... den er reference inden for basenheder - JBL har lavet en komerciel højtaler bygget op på basis af 2226'eren. Den koster 25.000 ...dollars!!
så det er ikke for ingenting jeg anbefaler at kigge i PA-retningen, men det lader jeg dig afgøre. (en relativ høj fs værdi som PA-modellerne typisk har, er heller ikke afgørende for om den kan spille som sub. - portene klarer de dybe frekvenser)
sæt evt en 6 db/okav filter på ved 60 hz for helt jævnt frekvens gang fra 30-100 hz, men personligt foretrækker jeg der lidt af det samme 'punch' som man finder i normale højtalere, ellers lyder det som om bassen forsvinder synes jeg.
men som sagt giv lyd fra dig hvis du er interesseret i at sælge dine 18w, og jeg hjælper dig gerne med at købe fra Monacor direkte. du kan også bare skrive her hvilke modeller du vil høre om priser på, så giver jeg besked.
mvh,
Anders Brørup
anders_broerup@hotmail.com
http://www.monacor.com/en/produkt_aufl_monacor.php?arthaupt=62&artunter=520
http://www.monacor.com/en/produkt_aufl_monacor.php?arthaupt=62&artunter=522
http://www.monacor.com/en/produktse...P-38A/300PA&bestellnummer=10.3390&uvp= 146,50
de har både high-end og low-end, PA-versioner (som faktisk er yderst velegnede til subs selvom de normalt spiller som bass/bass-midrange)
Pro enhederne er billige, og så er de konstrueret til at spille højt => lav forvrængning, som ellers er et særsyn i basenheder.
Scanspeak er kendt for at lave basenheder med lav forvrængning, men JBL's pro enhed har samme forvrænging målt ved dens maks effekt, 600 watt end scanspeaks basenheder har ved deres makseffekt = 1xx Watt!!,
Monacors sp-38 ligner JBL's men om kvaliteten er helt i top med JBL er svært at vurdere. men som sagt - selv om den ikke er helt ligeså god, tror jeg stadig den er bedre end 95% af alle komercielle/private enheder, (inkl scan-speak, hvis man skal spille relativ højt med dem).
ved ikke om du kender til JBL's 2226... den er reference inden for basenheder - JBL har lavet en komerciel højtaler bygget op på basis af 2226'eren. Den koster 25.000 ...dollars!!
så det er ikke for ingenting jeg anbefaler at kigge i PA-retningen, men det lader jeg dig afgøre. (en relativ høj fs værdi som PA-modellerne typisk har, er heller ikke afgørende for om den kan spille som sub. - portene klarer de dybe frekvenser)
sæt evt en 6 db/okav filter på ved 60 hz for helt jævnt frekvens gang fra 30-100 hz, men personligt foretrækker jeg der lidt af det samme 'punch' som man finder i normale højtalere, ellers lyder det som om bassen forsvinder synes jeg.
men som sagt giv lyd fra dig hvis du er interesseret i at sælge dine 18w, og jeg hjælper dig gerne med at købe fra Monacor direkte. du kan også bare skrive her hvilke modeller du vil høre om priser på, så giver jeg besked.
mvh,
Anders Brørup
anders_broerup@hotmail.com
18W/8546 Subs
Daniels,
Saw you threads only now, can give you some hints.
I use to work with most of Scan drivers for the past 10 years, and believe me, you've got one of the best drivers available today. Don't trade them, your project sounds good to me.
Beyond many theoretical aspects, which are all almost right, the sound matters. And the 18W/8546 have a sound, that outperforms most of the 7", but some 8".
The relatively smooth diaphragm behaves excellent as a piston in low frequencies, and have a smooth breakout at higher frequencies, which are not exactly disturbing the sound.
By means, they ARE suitable for your project, as a pure subwoofer, but would be perfect as an integrated sub for an existing design, where you can cut at higher frequencies.
The low midrange of those drivers is warm and "fast", allowing you to cut them with an 2nd order XO only.
Each driver should have its own volume, vented of course (don't waist volume if you can use it, in a vented system these drivers sound as dry as Sahara sand, more then some Dyn..... pieces of sh.. (also from Denmark) in a (theoretically better) sealed enclosure!
A small volume of 15-20 litres will give you what you are looking for: not the last Hertz available, but a correct LF, in a small volume, fast and dry, with a correct SPL.
A simple round port (diam. 5cm) is enough for each driver.
If you drive them actively, use a second or even fourth order high pass set to 30Hz, and a low pass of either 80-100Hz if used in a separate Subwoofer (away from the main speakers), with a fourth order XO; or a second order XO with 120-250Hz Fc if used as a sub under the main speakers. You may have to cut or not, the main speakers in a high pass, this depends on on your system and room.
Advantages: two small 7" (actaully they are rather 6.5") drivers are more suitable for small rooms, response would be accurate, fast and...deep, even it's not on the paper.
Keep 'em and have a (almost) livetime fun with them.
Rgds,
Dan
Daniels,
Saw you threads only now, can give you some hints.
I use to work with most of Scan drivers for the past 10 years, and believe me, you've got one of the best drivers available today. Don't trade them, your project sounds good to me.
Beyond many theoretical aspects, which are all almost right, the sound matters. And the 18W/8546 have a sound, that outperforms most of the 7", but some 8".
The relatively smooth diaphragm behaves excellent as a piston in low frequencies, and have a smooth breakout at higher frequencies, which are not exactly disturbing the sound.
By means, they ARE suitable for your project, as a pure subwoofer, but would be perfect as an integrated sub for an existing design, where you can cut at higher frequencies.
The low midrange of those drivers is warm and "fast", allowing you to cut them with an 2nd order XO only.
Each driver should have its own volume, vented of course (don't waist volume if you can use it, in a vented system these drivers sound as dry as Sahara sand, more then some Dyn..... pieces of sh.. (also from Denmark) in a (theoretically better) sealed enclosure!
A small volume of 15-20 litres will give you what you are looking for: not the last Hertz available, but a correct LF, in a small volume, fast and dry, with a correct SPL.
A simple round port (diam. 5cm) is enough for each driver.
If you drive them actively, use a second or even fourth order high pass set to 30Hz, and a low pass of either 80-100Hz if used in a separate Subwoofer (away from the main speakers), with a fourth order XO; or a second order XO with 120-250Hz Fc if used as a sub under the main speakers. You may have to cut or not, the main speakers in a high pass, this depends on on your system and room.
Advantages: two small 7" (actaully they are rather 6.5") drivers are more suitable for small rooms, response would be accurate, fast and...deep, even it's not on the paper.
Keep 'em and have a (almost) livetime fun with them.
Rgds,
Dan
I have decided to try them (8546) out now in two cabinets with two 8546 in each cabinet. If 40 litres per side is enough in a vented cabinets they certainly live up to my space requrements.
I am getting some 8546-02 drivers in a couple of days which I am exited to hear. They are almost identical to the 8546-00 drivers but with a phaseplug.
As a result of this discussion I am going to try out three different subwoofers:
All subwoofers will be made as stereo subwoofers with one sub for the left side and one for right side.
- One 8545 in a 23 litres cabinet vented.
- Two 8546 in a 40 litres cabinet vented (seperate internal cabinets with each of their own port).
- One 8546-02 in a 20 litres cabinet vented.
They are going to be an addition to my small speakers as subwoofers and stands (stereo subwoofers).
The results of the tests will, of course, be posted here.
I am getting some 8546-02 drivers in a couple of days which I am exited to hear. They are almost identical to the 8546-00 drivers but with a phaseplug.
As a result of this discussion I am going to try out three different subwoofers:
All subwoofers will be made as stereo subwoofers with one sub for the left side and one for right side.
- One 8545 in a 23 litres cabinet vented.
- Two 8546 in a 40 litres cabinet vented (seperate internal cabinets with each of their own port).
- One 8546-02 in a 20 litres cabinet vented.
They are going to be an addition to my small speakers as subwoofers and stands (stereo subwoofers).
The results of the tests will, of course, be posted here.
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