Small (3-6 L) passive radiator subwoofer design

[sorokin]

Hello guys

As a part of my project I need to create small subwoofer of 3-6 L enclosure (the smaller the volume, the better) with the lowest freq of 30-40 Hz.

After simulations in akabak, WinISD, JBL Speakershop and BassBox Pro I choose Tang Band W5-1138SMF 5-1/4” and Peerless by Tymphany 830878 3-1/2“ but with simulations I have got around 65- 70 hz at -3 db, so its not what I want even if I use active dsp sigma studio, I think I need to find a solution to reach lower freq

I ask you to give friendly advice:

- Which subwoofer driver and passive radiators you also know 4-6 inch which could be suitable for me?

- Do you know some others passive radiators to go at low freq?

- when choosing a subwoofer, what parameters should I pay attention to?
when choosing, I was guided by the resonance frequency, Xmax

- the same for the passive radiator?

- Is it physically possible to achieve such a low frequency?

Therefore, judging by the analysis of the market, there are systems that operate with 30 Hz with the same volume (Beolit 17 is not advertising) or is it a commercial move?

- what can you recommend?


- Also do you know of other simulators or what is more accurate at the moment (akabak, WinISD, JBL Speakershop and BassBox Pro)? because I got everywhere different results
Is there a full explanation of how to use akabak - it's hard for me to understand how to program it


Thank you so much!

 

[ICG]

The Tang Band W5-1138SMF is excellent for your goals. It can hit mid-30s in 6l with a passive membrane. Usually you add weight to the passive membrane for tuning adjustment.

 

[sorokin]

The Tang Band W5-1138SMF is excellent for your goals. It can hit mid-30s in 6l with a passive membrane. Usually you add weight to the passive membrane for tuning adjustment.

thank you for your response

but I am also thinking about using Tang Band W6-1139SIF 6-1/2" it has 35 Hz - resonance

or there will be no noticeable improvement?

and what do you advise to use as a passive radiator?

Peerless by Tymphany 830878 3-1 / 2 "
or
Dayton Audio SD175-PR 6-1 / 2 "
or
Dayton Audio SD215-PR 8 "

it is advisable, for example, to use two small passive radiators, one of which to add mass and lower resonance?

but I'm afraid the Tang Band will suffice in this case?

where in Europe a large selection of loudspeakers? what are the biggest online stores?

 

[Mayuri]

I usually order from loudspeakerfreaks.

Take at look at Reckhorn D-165 as well. You can order it directly from them. Fits well in a small enclosure with passive driver.

 

[ICG]

but I am also thinking about using Tang Band W6-1139SIF 6-1/2" it has 35 Hz - resonance

or there will be no noticeable improvement?

The resonance is only of significance in conjunction with the Qts and Vas. The Vas is directly dependent on the membrane surface so using a bigger driver almost always leads to a bigger enclosure. I've already simulated the W6 before my last answer and I can tell you you won't get that deep in that volume.

and what do you advise to use as a passive radiator?

Peerless by Tymphany 830878 3-1 / 2 "
or
Dayton Audio SD175-PR 6-1 / 2 "
or
Dayton Audio SD215-PR 8 "

it is advisable, for example, to use two small passive radiators, one of which to add mass and lower resonance?

You need more surface on the PM than the actual driver since its resonance will be lower and therefore it will make more excursion if it's the same size. The use of more PM is viable but they have to be tuned to the exact same frequency. That is cruicial.

but I'm afraid the Tang Band will suffice in this case?

where in Europe a large selection of loudspeakers? what are the biggest online stores?

Strassacker got a very huge range of drivers: Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau

If you want small enclosures however, Blue Planet Acoustics got a good variety of drivers, Tang Band, their own brand and others: Lautsprecher Shop | blue planet acoustic

There are ofcourse others too.

 

[sorokin]

The resonance is only of significance in conjunction with the Qts and Vas. The Vas is directly dependent on the membrane surface so using a bigger driver almost always leads to a bigger enclosure. I've already simulated the W6 before my last answer and I can tell you you won't get that deep in that volume.

Thank you, it means that the Tang Band W5-1138SMF 5-1 / 4 "should optimally fit me

I tried to find myself something similar to this Tang Band, but to my surprise did not find anything, or really not in this size and with these parameters, or I poorly searched


Could you please advise good literature on the approach of selecting the speaker, explanation and the connection of its parameters...?

So for the interest, it seemed to me that the lower the resonance, the better, and what if using a larger driver (in the same box), maybe worse than with smaller driver?

You need more surface on the PM than the actual driver since its resonance will be lower and therefore it will make more excursion if it's the same size. The use of more PM is viable but they have to be tuned to the exact same frequency. That is cruicial.

Thank you for the explanation, but unfortunately I don't have experience (yet), so what will be physically better to use 2 smaller 3-1/2" Passive Radiators Tymphany 830878 (Fs: 29 Hz • Vas: 0.10 cu. ft. • Cms: 0.791 mm/N • Mms: 38.5 g • Rms: 0.48 kg/s • Sd: 50.2 sq. cm. QMS - 1.445, Xmax - 6.5mm)

or one Dayton Audio SD175-PR 6-1/2"
(Fs: 30.2 Hz • Vas: 0.61 cu. ft. • Qms: 1.8 • Cms: 0.74 mm/N • Mms: 37.5 g • Sd: 128.7 sq. cm. • Xmax: 8 mm)

Since Tang Band W5 has Xmax = 9.25 mm and Sd = 94 cm² I am wondering and a little bit worry, because Xmax and Sd of smaller radiator is smaller and using just 1 its not a good idea, but what about if using two smaller?
... if I am correct, affecting on the PR membranes, volume velocity is the same (homogeneous inside the box) for two PR membranes, so its also not a good idea?

so using one bigger PR will be better? what do you think and can reccomend?

when choosing PR at which parameters of the last one should I also pay attention to?

Strassacker got a very huge range of drivers: Strassacker: Lautsprecher - Boxen - Selbstbau

If you want small enclosures however, Blue Planet Acoustics got a good variety of drivers, Tang Band, their own brand and others: Lautsprecher Shop | blue planet acoustic

There are of course others too.

Actually I just need a good supplier for loudspeakers, PR with a large selection of the last one's

 

[sorokin]

I usually order from loudspeakerfreaks.

Take at look at Reckhorn D-165 as well. You can order it directly from them. Fits well in a small enclosure with passive driver.

Thank you! I will see. But did you use it?

 

[sorokin]

Fs is lower but I am wondering and worry about big Vas 17 L

 

[ICG]

Thank you, it means that the Tang Band W5-1138SMF 5-1 / 4 "should optimally fit me

If the enclosure size is set, then yes.

Could you please advise good literature on the approach of selecting the speaker, explanation and the connection of its parameters...?

Yes, try this link. Vast source of information.

So for the interest, it seemed to me that the lower the resonance, the better, and what if using a larger driver (in the same box), maybe worse than with smaller driver?

No. It depends on the Qts and Vas aswell.

Thank you for the explanation, but unfortunately I don't have experience (yet), so what will be physically better to use 2 smaller 3-1/2" Passive Radiators Tymphany 830878 (Fs: 29 Hz • Vas: 0.10 cu. ft. • Cms: 0.791 mm/N • Mms: 38.5 g • Rms: 0.48 kg/s • Sd: 50.2 sq. cm. QMS - 1.445, Xmax - 6.5mm)

or one Dayton Audio SD175-PR 6-1/2"
(Fs: 30.2 Hz • Vas: 0.61 cu. ft. • Qms: 1.8 • Cms: 0.74 mm/N • Mms: 37.5 g • Sd: 128.7 sq. cm. • Xmax: 8 mm)

Either will work but the larger one is much better because it got more surface than two of the smaller ones and additionaly, more excursion.

Since Tang Band W5 has Xmax = 9.25 mm and Sd = 94 cm² I am wondering and a little bit worry, because Xmax and Sd of smaller radiator is smaller and using just 1 its not a good idea, but what about if using two smaller?

... if I am correct, affecting on the PR membranes, volume velocity is the same (homogeneous inside the box) for two PR membranes, so its also not a good idea?

so using one bigger PR will be better? what do you think and can reccomend?

See above, bigger is better (well, at least in this case.. )

when choosing PR at which parameters of the last one should I also pay attention to?

Price and availability. You could also use a different (or even the same) driver as a passive membrane, just leave it passive (do not connect). That is a valid option since a lot of PR are unreasonably expensive. Just keep in mind, you probably have to adjust the mass and the magnet also uses up volume. Using an actual driver means you usually can get a lot more excursion than the 'normal' Xmax since it doesn't care about how far the coil is out of the magnet gap but there are exceptions.

The Omnes Audio SW 6.01 is a great candidate for that (and a very good driver too but needs more volume or does not go that deep). Very reasonable priced, too.

 

[sorokin]

Either will work but the larger one is much better because it got more surface than two of the smaller ones and additionaly, more excursion.
See above, bigger is better (well, at least in this case.. )

Hi, thanks for your answers!

Thanks, but the larger one has Vas around 17 L (small one around 3L) will it not affect negatively in any way?

The Omnes Audio SW 6.01 is a great candidate for that (and a very good driver too but needs more volume or does not go that deep). Very reasonable priced, too.

It's a good idea! I will see, because I also need to take into account the total weight of the product, and by the way I have not found anywhere else how much it weighs ... strange


I also wanted to ask you, will be reasonable in my case using two Tang Band W5 (my ampli provides two channels) ? or lower freq I will not get in this way? Or probably it just be + 3-6 dB compared to using one?

Thanks!

 

[ICG]

Thanks, but the larger one has Vas around 17 L (small one around 3L) will it not affect negatively in any way?

The Vas is always directly tied to the surface and suspension. If you take two small ones, the Sd adds and you are at 6l Vas. I've simulated the biger one before, it should be practically flat without weight adjustment. If it does not because of the wrong enclosure volume or deviant suspension stiffness, you can still adjust the mass.

It's a good idea! I will see, because I also need to take into account the total weight of the product, and by the way I have not found anywhere else how much it weighs ... strange

I don't understand, why is the total weight important?

I also wanted to ask you, will be reasonable in my case using two Tang Band W5 (my ampli provides two channels) ? or lower freq I will not get in this way? Or probably it just be + 3-6 dB compared to using one?

With two W5 you'd need double the enclosure volume and passive membrane surface. In that case I'd strongly suggest you'd go i.e. for the Omnes Audio SW 6.01 and build it in bassreflex, that would be a lot cheaper. Once you're beyond 5", there are so much more suitable drivers.

 

[sorokin]

The Vas is always directly tied to the surface and suspension. If you take two small ones, the Sd adds and you are at 6l Vas. I've simulated the biger one before, it should be practically flat without weight adjustment. If it does not because of the wrong enclosure volume or deviant suspension stiffness, you can still adjust the mass.

Excuse me, I'm a little confused, that is, it will be better for the 6 L box two small or one big PR? Because I cant simulate two radiators, I do not know how to do it...

I don't understand, why is the total weight important?

Since it is a scientific project I am in some frames. The technical task is the implementation of a subwoofer up to 6 liters with a lower frequency of 30 - 35 (40 max) Hz and of course I have to think about weights (less is better).

With two W5 you'd need double the enclosure volume and passive membrane surface. In that case I'd strongly suggest you'd go i.e. for the Omnes Audio SW 6.01 and build it in bassreflex, that would be a lot cheaper. Once you're beyond 5", there are so much more suitable drivers.

Thanks for responding to the expense of using two drivers, but no it's not acceptable for me, it's just for interest, for knowledge


But if using SW 6.01 as a passive radiator will greatly improve the response at the lower frequencies (compared to the use of a passive radiator), should this be expected? I'm ready to sacrifice weight, but again, if it's worth it.

Do you know how much SW 6.01 weighs about?

The financial issue is also important, but SW 6.01 costs about two small radiators or one big ...


By the way, I heard that if you use a speaker as a passive radiator, then outputs of loudspeaker are short-circuited by a resistor to change the Rms or Cms, is it true and effective?

What is the name of this simulator and where I can get it?
I've seen such screenshots before but could not find this program

 

[ICG]

Excuse me, I'm a little confused, that is, it will be better for the 6 L box two small or one big PR?

One big PR is better because it got more surface.

Since it is a scientific project I am in some frames. The technical task is the implementation of a subwoofer up to 6 liters with a lower frequency of 30 - 35 (40 max) Hz and of course I have to think about weights (less is better).
[...]
But if using SW 6.01 as a passive radiator will greatly improve the response at the lower frequencies (compared to the use of a passive radiator), should this be expected? I'm ready to sacrifice weight, but again, if it's worth it.

So I'm doing your work on the project? If you are going to use the Omnes SW6.01 as a PR and want to save weight, you could remove the magnet.

Do you know how much SW 6.01 weighs about?

No, sry. But it's very similar to the TB W6-1139SIF, you could search for that driver.

The financial issue is also important, but SW 6.01 costs about two small radiators or one big ...

Last time I checked the PR of TB were a lot more expensive. At least where I looked. To shorten that..

Lautsprecher Shop | Bundled project PR14-B | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Lautsprecher Shop | Bundled project PR10-A | Lautsprecher Selbstbau
Lautsprecher Shop | Bundled project PR14-C | Lautsprecher Selbstbau

By the way, I heard that if you use a speaker as a passive radiator, then outputs of loudspeaker are short-circuited by a resistor to change the Rms or Cms, is it true and effective?

The Cms can't be changed by that, you'd have to tear up the suspension/spider. You can change the Rms but why would you want more losses?

What is the name of this simulator and where I can get it?
I've seen such screenshots before but could not find this program

BassCADe. Google will find it.

 

[sorokin]

So I'm doing your work on the project?

Yes, but I will definitely write your name into my project

Actually thanks for practical advices!

If you are going to use the Omnes SW6.01 as a PR and want to save weight, you could remove the magnet.

but I still do not understand it, will it give better result than using the passive radiator SD175-PR 6-1/2" from Dayton Audio? If yes, is the result worth it ? (I think removing the magnet is not an easy thing - one needs to tinker)

BassCADe. Google will find it.

Thanks, I'll try to use

But did you compare the results of different simulation programs (WinISD, Bass box pro ...) like that? (which is the most accurate)?

 

[sorokin]

Last time I checked the PR of TB were a lot more expensive. At least where I looked. To shorten that..

Lautsprecher Shop | Bundled project PR14-B | Lautsprecher Selbstbau

And what do you say if I will buy this kit PR14-B 5 "Subwoofer Bundle

This is the W5 with a passive radiator by Tang Bang, the price for me is more profitable than buying separately W5 and other passive radiator

But I can not find the information about this passive radiator that is included, Xmax and dimensions

How do you think this radiator is suitable (fits) for W5?

I'm from France and as it turned out it's a problem to buy a passive radiator

 

[ICG]

If you want to remove the magnet of the Omnes SW6.01 you saw off the basket between the spider and the magnet. Not pretty but it works.

However, if you can get the PR for a similar price, buy the PR. If you buy such a driver and PR bundle, either select the one you see fit to your needs and keep to the plan or modify it in enclosure volume and, if needed, add weight, you already wrote you can simulate it yourself, no help needed anymore.

 

[sorokin]

If you want to remove the magnet of the Omnes SW6.01 you saw off the basket between the spider and the magnet. Not pretty but it works.

However, if you can get the PR for a similar price, buy the PR. If you buy such a driver and PR bundle, either select the one you see fit to your needs and keep to the plan or modify it in enclosure volume and, if needed, add weight, you already wrote you can simulate it yourself, no help needed anymore.

Thanks

I forget ask you, about your personal opinion, (of course I will do the simulations? but sometimes experience can say more)

What if I use full complect from Tang Bang:
1)PR14-B 5" Subwoofer Bundle
or
2) PR10-A 5" Subwoofer Bundle

What will be better?

Or using just W5-1138SMF + 8" Passive Radiator (dayton-audio-sd215) -like we discussed

Thank you!

 

[Ajaychoudhary4]

you also check ALIEXPRESS for passive radiators. As there are alot of options available. there are also cost effective. Remember before buying on Aliexpress, many sellers don't have the specification sheet of product, so take care.