I’m still looking for the best choice in a portable (1-man carry) sub, that can handle DJ gigs as well as rock bands. IMO, the QSC KW181’s suck donkey balls.
The BR dual 12’s I just bought are absurdly bad when pushed, and not nearly efficient enough.
After going around in massive circles, I've actually come around to considering passive, horn-loaded subs. It's far from what I want in many ways, but it might in fact be the best compromise.
I've been looking at the Danley THMini15. I could probably handle a pair of those, but I'm a bit hung up at the -3dB @ 50Hz rating. I know folks love those boxes, and maybe that’s deep enough, but it scares me without actually hearing them.
The JT Growler looks really good. Flat to about 40 Hz, but they don't make them any longer. Also, the thought of just two 12” drivers handling all my LF is REALLY scary.
that just doesn’t seem possible. Still, that might be a design to shoot for, yes?
=================================================
### SO:
I have to also consider Chris’ “Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer.” From the looks of the thing, I could manage for of them in my pickup truck, which is lovely.
- BUT WHAT ARE THE SPECS? - Size, weight, freq response, maximum sustained output? Power required to reach that max output?
I looked at the original thread for this design, but it’s over 100 pages long. You gotta’ be kidding me… I assume the design went through some changes along the way.
Chris, can you give me a simple update, regarding the final version?
(Construction, and specs.)
--------------------------------
Also: Can anyone who’s used these give there opinion on sound, output, and how they work in various contexts?
The thing is, Maybe I won't like the "clean" sound of a horn, anyway?
I've read that the distortion generated by BR designs actually makes them seem louder, and I need a s much volume per watt as possible. - I have both a rock band & a DJ service, and need to use the same rig for both. (And need to carry it all myself. And need to tun on one 15a service, including lights... You know the deal. )
Has anyone used Chris’ design for DJ applications?
The BR dual 12’s I just bought are absurdly bad when pushed, and not nearly efficient enough.
After going around in massive circles, I've actually come around to considering passive, horn-loaded subs. It's far from what I want in many ways, but it might in fact be the best compromise.
I've been looking at the Danley THMini15. I could probably handle a pair of those, but I'm a bit hung up at the -3dB @ 50Hz rating. I know folks love those boxes, and maybe that’s deep enough, but it scares me without actually hearing them.
The JT Growler looks really good. Flat to about 40 Hz, but they don't make them any longer. Also, the thought of just two 12” drivers handling all my LF is REALLY scary.
that just doesn’t seem possible. Still, that might be a design to shoot for, yes?
=================================================
### SO:
I have to also consider Chris’ “Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer.” From the looks of the thing, I could manage for of them in my pickup truck, which is lovely.
- BUT WHAT ARE THE SPECS? - Size, weight, freq response, maximum sustained output? Power required to reach that max output?
I looked at the original thread for this design, but it’s over 100 pages long. You gotta’ be kidding me… I assume the design went through some changes along the way.
Chris, can you give me a simple update, regarding the final version?
(Construction, and specs.)
--------------------------------
Also: Can anyone who’s used these give there opinion on sound, output, and how they work in various contexts?
The thing is, Maybe I won't like the "clean" sound of a horn, anyway?
I've read that the distortion generated by BR designs actually makes them seem louder, and I need a s much volume per watt as possible. - I have both a rock band & a DJ service, and need to use the same rig for both. (And need to carry it all myself. And need to tun on one 15a service, including lights... You know the deal. )
Has anyone used Chris’ design for DJ applications?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/272492-teeny-tiny-pa-15-subwoofer-12.html#post4939160
Is the final version. It started out as an offset-driver quarter-wave-pipe, but the mounting depth of the Faital Pro drivers meant it was morphed into a bass reflex, which is shown in the link above. I built the version with three panels for the port.
Specs are as follows:
- Weight: around 25kg. Not sure, haven't measured. I weigh around 160lbs and can pick them up with one hand.
- Dimensions: around 600x440x440
Maximum SPL is a bit more difficult to say. With one on a channel of an NU6000, I got 121dB at 40Hz, after the 2dB of port compression that comes up with the 90v drive levels. Since the response slopes downwards, it'll get louder at 100Hz.
You could hit them with more power (I use an MA12000i in stereo mode) for a bit more peak output, but it's 3dB (minus any compression effects) and needs some serious voltage swing. An NU6000 will drive these just fine.
Compare to a good 2x12" cabinet here: Data-Bass
And have a look at the measurements of a QSC KW181: https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.websitetoolbox.com/192999/2489053
115dB at 40Hz!
Sure, it'll win out at 70Hz, but that's a bigger box and a bigger driver.
Some examples of uses, if you like:
- 2x subs, 200 people seated for live music (folk/rock, with drum kit and bass guitar), just fine. Headroom to spare
- 2x subs, 100 people seated in a theatre for a dance event. Fine, even when the bass dropped low. Again, power to spare.
- 4x subs, rugby stadium. YouTube - 85dB at 260' from the speakers. That's a slow measurement, with peaks around 18dB higher. You had to shout to the person next to you.
- 8x subs, pub car park. Feel-the-bass loud at the other end of a crowd of 300. Properly solid when the bass dropped.
- 4x subs, car park again. Rap music. Lots of fun in the first 30' or so.
- 2x subs, small village hall (40' square, ish). Loud rap music. Doors rattling throughout the venue.
I don't know if anyone else has built them.
Chris
PS - if you're anywhere near Sheffield I'd be happy to demo some/all of them.
Is the final version. It started out as an offset-driver quarter-wave-pipe, but the mounting depth of the Faital Pro drivers meant it was morphed into a bass reflex, which is shown in the link above. I built the version with three panels for the port.
Specs are as follows:
- Weight: around 25kg. Not sure, haven't measured. I weigh around 160lbs and can pick them up with one hand.
- Dimensions: around 600x440x440
Maximum SPL is a bit more difficult to say. With one on a channel of an NU6000, I got 121dB at 40Hz, after the 2dB of port compression that comes up with the 90v drive levels. Since the response slopes downwards, it'll get louder at 100Hz.
You could hit them with more power (I use an MA12000i in stereo mode) for a bit more peak output, but it's 3dB (minus any compression effects) and needs some serious voltage swing. An NU6000 will drive these just fine.
Compare to a good 2x12" cabinet here: Data-Bass
And have a look at the measurements of a QSC KW181: https://s3.amazonaws.com/files.websitetoolbox.com/192999/2489053
115dB at 40Hz!
Sure, it'll win out at 70Hz, but that's a bigger box and a bigger driver.
Some examples of uses, if you like:
- 2x subs, 200 people seated for live music (folk/rock, with drum kit and bass guitar), just fine. Headroom to spare
- 2x subs, 100 people seated in a theatre for a dance event. Fine, even when the bass dropped low. Again, power to spare.
- 4x subs, rugby stadium. YouTube - 85dB at 260' from the speakers. That's a slow measurement, with peaks around 18dB higher. You had to shout to the person next to you.
- 8x subs, pub car park. Feel-the-bass loud at the other end of a crowd of 300. Properly solid when the bass dropped.
- 4x subs, car park again. Rap music. Lots of fun in the first 30' or so.
- 2x subs, small village hall (40' square, ish). Loud rap music. Doors rattling throughout the venue.
I don't know if anyone else has built them.
Chris
PS - if you're anywhere near Sheffield I'd be happy to demo some/all of them.
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Hmmm. I thought they were small horns. I'm kind of leaning that way now.
Or not. With ported boxes, single 15's does e the ultimate way to go, as a smallish box can be built without many compromises. (As you proved.) And I still have my Lab Gruppen amps. Heck, I even have a couple of good EV 15" sub drivers in the garage. (Years ago I have some company custom make me single 15" ported boxes, but these suck. I think they're just too small.)
I guess it wouldn't kill me to carry something like a DBX drive rack.
I could install really good plate amps later, when I have the money.
But if I'm going to go with a ported 15, there are a LOT of decent ones already on the market. I'd rather not have to build anything. Turbosound, Yorkville, PS, etc look decent. What stops me with all of them is their lack of LF extension. That's why I wish you could give more "standard" specs for your design. I have no way to compare, short of building them and then doing a shootout.
Or not. With ported boxes, single 15's does e the ultimate way to go, as a smallish box can be built without many compromises. (As you proved.) And I still have my Lab Gruppen amps. Heck, I even have a couple of good EV 15" sub drivers in the garage. (Years ago I have some company custom make me single 15" ported boxes, but these suck. I think they're just too small.)
I guess it wouldn't kill me to carry something like a DBX drive rack.
I could install really good plate amps later, when I have the money.
But if I'm going to go with a ported 15, there are a LOT of decent ones already on the market. I'd rather not have to build anything. Turbosound, Yorkville, PS, etc look decent. What stops me with all of them is their lack of LF extension. That's why I wish you could give more "standard" specs for your design. I have no way to compare, short of building them and then doing a shootout.
There aren't many 15" ported boxes on the market that will keep up with these. I've already shown it'll beat a mid-level active 18" at the bottom end, by 6dB. ie, you'd need 2x KW181 to match 1x Tiny15 at 40Hz, though the 18"s would win higher up.
I really do hate the industry-standard specs that get thrown around, since they often correspond very badly to reality. Here's an article I wrote on the subject: Spec Wars: Looking Inside Loudspeaker SPL Specifications - ProSoundWeb
If I was going to play their games with these boxes, it'd look something like this:
Continuous power handling: 1000w
Recommended amplifier power 1000-2000w into 8ohm
Peak SPL: 136dB
Low-frequency cutoff (-10dB): 32Hz
Recommended processing:
Parametric EQ: 40Hz, +4dB, Q=1
Highpass filter: 4th order Butterworth at 36Hz
Lowpass filter: wherever's good for your mains. Not over 160Hz.
You can use an amplifier of up to 2KW into 8ohm without any need for peak limiting.
The 136dB comes from the 103dB@1w cone breakup peak around 1.2kHz. Drop 2KW there and it'll do 136dB. Attempting to get that SPL in the subwoofer range will need a lot more power (10s of kilowatts) and will likely damage the driver.
It'll do 121dB at 40Hz, and more like 125dB up at 100Hz. Those are actual, sensible numbers that the box really will do.
A KW181 will do 115dB at 40Hz and 127dB around 70Hz. I know which I'd pick.
I'll be posting this information on the first page of the design thread so everyone can see where it got up to.
Chris
I really do hate the industry-standard specs that get thrown around, since they often correspond very badly to reality. Here's an article I wrote on the subject: Spec Wars: Looking Inside Loudspeaker SPL Specifications - ProSoundWeb
If I was going to play their games with these boxes, it'd look something like this:
Continuous power handling: 1000w
Recommended amplifier power 1000-2000w into 8ohm
Peak SPL: 136dB
Low-frequency cutoff (-10dB): 32Hz
Recommended processing:
Parametric EQ: 40Hz, +4dB, Q=1
Highpass filter: 4th order Butterworth at 36Hz
Lowpass filter: wherever's good for your mains. Not over 160Hz.
You can use an amplifier of up to 2KW into 8ohm without any need for peak limiting.
The 136dB comes from the 103dB@1w cone breakup peak around 1.2kHz. Drop 2KW there and it'll do 136dB. Attempting to get that SPL in the subwoofer range will need a lot more power (10s of kilowatts) and will likely damage the driver.
It'll do 121dB at 40Hz, and more like 125dB up at 100Hz. Those are actual, sensible numbers that the box really will do.
A KW181 will do 115dB at 40Hz and 127dB around 70Hz. I know which I'd pick.
I'll be posting this information on the first page of the design thread so everyone can see where it got up to.
Chris
There comes a point in which you need to upgrade from prosumer to real pro gear. You get what you pay for... The PA sub designs posted here are on par with pro touring gear and will wipe the floor with QSC and stuff at Guitar Center. It is really hard to tell comparing specs but you will notice immediately when you first use them. They will go far beyond the limits you are accustomed to.
It's fun to think so, and to a large extent you're correct, but:
The obvious question is, if we can build something more optimum, for such a low price, why can't QSC?
Part of the answer is obvious: They chase the holey "peak dB output" number, for marketing reasons. I'm well aware of this, which os why on on these forums, trying to work something out.
Another part of the equation is price, of course. To me, a $1400 powered sub pretty much HAS to be garbage. I know this. I used to use $4300 Lab Gruppen amps. My passive tops cost $6K for the pair, plus $4300 for another fP6400.
But the only great sounding, SMALL sub I ever heard was made by Turbosound, and it was about $3300 a pop, and I'd still have needed at least three of them. That's out of my price range these days.
Luckily, I still have those Lab Gruppens, so I'm now trying to find some passive solution, figuring I can add really good plate amps later on. (I'd build the cabs accordingly, and just put a block inside where the amp would later fit.)
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Which brings me to the important question for Chris:
I believe everything you've written, but how do you personally account for the significantly better response of your design, over various commercial boxes in the same size range?
It can't be magic.
That's why I asked about output, in figures / measurement that matches how all the manufacturers do it. I know you're raving about the output, but I haven't personally hear them, and from what I can see, the way to get better LF response kind of automatically has the consequence of limiting output. (Unless it the drivers that are special)
And even THAT is OK, as long as I can get enough with 4 cabs, which is why I'm still here and still considering this design. (It's also why I took a chance on those Line 6 dual 12's, figuring three of them might work. Sadly ...... )
=================
Question #2 for Chris:
Why did you abandon the small horn idea, which as you say was your starting point?
I really need to know this, since as you know I'm also considering small horns, along the lines of the JT Growler.
For me, the answer may be that I can only fit 2, maybe three such horns in my truck, whereas I can easily fit four of your ported design. That, coupled with the apparent increased volume of ported subs (due to distortion) could mean that the horns won't give me enough output in certain situations. - But I don't know for sure, just yet.
I believe everything you've written, but how do you personally account for the significantly better response of your design, over various commercial boxes in the same size range?
It can't be magic.
That's why I asked about output, in figures / measurement that matches how all the manufacturers do it. I know you're raving about the output, but I haven't personally hear them, and from what I can see, the way to get better LF response kind of automatically has the consequence of limiting output. (Unless it the drivers that are special)
And even THAT is OK, as long as I can get enough with 4 cabs, which is why I'm still here and still considering this design. (It's also why I took a chance on those Line 6 dual 12's, figuring three of them might work. Sadly ...... )
=================
Question #2 for Chris:
Why did you abandon the small horn idea, which as you say was your starting point?
I really need to know this, since as you know I'm also considering small horns, along the lines of the JT Growler.
For me, the answer may be that I can only fit 2, maybe three such horns in my truck, whereas I can easily fit four of your ported design. That, coupled with the apparent increased volume of ported subs (due to distortion) could mean that the horns won't give me enough output in certain situations. - But I don't know for sure, just yet.
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Yup, the lower the resonance frequency, the greater the excursion in the passband.
Different people have different ideas of what constitutes "enough" bass. It's very subjective, and most of the time "more" is considered "better", so it's not surprising to see commercial units concentrate on efficiency and output where are areas are a lot more sensitive.
Objectively, SPL, linearity and distortion tests can all help in the determination of if a subwoofer is fit for purpose. You don't see much of those though.. .
. The measurements Crescendo provided in his thread are a very good start....
Horns can increase output level over a bass reflex design for a given excursion, but generally are also pushed to the limits of excursion and typically have as much or even more distortion at Xmax than a BR.
One big difference I saw after build my TH cab (SS15MOD) was the directivity behavior due to the horn. Theoretically the bass frequency should be unidirectional, but this didn't happen for TH design so:
Notes:
- If you prefer/need for spreaded sound, for a kind of background music, go for vented design
- If you need efficiency (more SPL/watt) go for TH one
Notes:
- The FLH are more suitable for large environments, when you will stack many cabs
- Bandpass are harder to tune, so this could be an option if the driver's T/S are trustful or if you are able to measure and to proper tune it.
- If you will do live music, directivity helps a lot to control noise on the stage
- Drivers QTS and cab design create a big difference in the bass signature so don't forget about this important features. High QTS drivers are the best ones for percussions, smooth, deep and long bass, but can't play tight and/or fast bass like heavy metal double pedal drum. Some design must have low QTS to be more efficient, but the bass will not be perfect for everything
- At lower frequencies, other then ear, your body will "fill" the sound, we need both feeling, and lower is the frequency less we ear (loudness effect), so efficiency, from my point of view, is the main parameter
You miss my (important) point.
Many people feel that a ported sub of less real volume at, say 50Hz, actually sound LOUDER than the horn which is actually louder. - Because of the formers harmonic distortion.
While this is not something to strive for, it could actually be considered beneficial in cases where the available power, or available track space, are already maxed out.
I've got low-Qts drivers playing deep bass just fine. I don't know where you've got all that from, but it ain't right.
Take a look at the 12"s you're using, and then take a look at the Faital Pro 15HP1060 drivers I'm using.
The Faital Pros feature:
- A well-ventilated neodymium magnet structure
- 4" voice coil
- Demodulating ring
- Healthy Xmax
- 1KW long-term power handling, 2KW short-term
From the pictures of your drivers, you're looking at a cheap 12" with a basic motor, and you'd be lucky to get 5mm Xmax.
Assuming an Xmax of 5mm, one of those 15"s can move as much air as four of those 12"s. The 15"s also have the port area and power handling to back that up while the 12"s appear to be struggling in that regard, too.
So, 1x 15" will do as much excursion-limited output as a pair of those Line6 boxes. At, say, 80Hz, the Line6 boxes would probably have more output as you're getting away from mechanical limits and getting to the point where outright sensitivity wins. However, there's no point IMO in having a subwoofer that will do lots of output at 80Hz if it's going to fart at 40Hz.
4x Tiny15 will match 8x Line6 at 40Hz is the take-away.
Did you watch the video? When you use good drivers, output density (SPL per cubic foot) goes up and up.
Most commercial cabinets do not use drivers this good. If you want examples of commercial cabinets that do, you need to look at the top-of-the-range systems that cost £10,000 per box.
d&b B22
Reports say those boxes are of the order of $20,000 each, with a minimum order quantity of 6. There are plenty of drivers in there, but you get the idea of the sort of level we're at here.
Okay, I'm going to try and explain this one last time. It's been covered in my other posts.
The cabinet is not a horn. It never was.
It started out life as a 1/4-wave transmission line. The slight expansion helped position the resonances just right, while making sure the port exit was nice and big to make sure vent compression was kept to a minimum.
It worked well for the Beyma drivers I wanted to use.
However, I got a really good deal on a set of four Faital Pro 15HP1060 drivers, which match the Beymas pretty much perfectly. Those drivers have a much greater mounting depth, though, which meant the back of the driver would've had to go through the wood panels, if I wanted to keep the transmission line.
It turned out that a bass reflex enclosure worked about as well as the transmission line, and allowed me to fit either the Beyma or Faital Pro drivers just fine, so that's the design I went with. I use the cabinets interchangeably, because they measure pretty much identically.
The JTR Growler is, by all accounts, a very good box. It looks like it'll just about beat out a Tiny15" around 70Hz, but above/below they're pretty close. Jeff's using a smaller driver in a bigger box. It has higher sensitivity and similar maximum output, so will need less power to get to those levels.
Chris
QTS is about driver damping capacity, (search for Under, Over and Critical Damping).
About recorded sound, when HiFi is needed, the best way to go is low QTS, you want the driver to perfectly reproduce what was recorded.
At live music, in same cases with percursions musics as I said, when the QTS is higher the driver will not be HiFi, so it can present signal overshot (more excursion) and also harmonics that doesn't exist in the original signal, in this case the loundspeaker is not just reproducing sound but is an important artistic part of the sound maker, and the target is about public feeling.
Hey Mark,
Photobucket has eaten all the measurements I've posted, but I'll upload them somewhere else when I next get a chance. Likely a couple of days time.
The long-and-short was the response slopes down from 100Hz to 40Hz by around 4dB. A filter with a Q-factor of 1 at 40Hz levels this pretty much perfectly.
There's also a rise above 100Hz up to 160Hz, where the response starts getting choppy (higher frequencies making it out of the port).
The simulations came out quite close to the measurements IIRC, and I find them very useful when you take their limitations into account.
Cheers,
Chris
Photobucket has eaten all the measurements I've posted, but I'll upload them somewhere else when I next get a chance. Likely a couple of days time.
The long-and-short was the response slopes down from 100Hz to 40Hz by around 4dB. A filter with a Q-factor of 1 at 40Hz levels this pretty much perfectly.
There's also a rise above 100Hz up to 160Hz, where the response starts getting choppy (higher frequencies making it out of the port).
The simulations came out quite close to the measurements IIRC, and I find them very useful when you take their limitations into account.
Cheers,
Chris
Does enabling the "Lossy Le" option in Hornresp bring the sim more in line with the measured results ?