This is a tough one, but incredibly important for me.
I realize that critical data is missing, but I'm hoping to get even just some basic opinions from you guys.
It's a lot of reading, so thanks in advance, if anyone can help even a little bit.
================================================
BACKGROUND:
I have just replaced my live-performance subs with Line 6 L3s's. These a a dual 12",front-loaded design. For several important reasons (ergonomics, electronics, etc) these are absolutely perfect for me. Unfortunately, I'm not happy about the sound when they are pushed hard.
I didn't expect them to be loud, so that's not it. In fact, I'm very happy that whomever designed them kept the porting small, and so willingly sacrificed overall output for frequency response. (They're 3 db dow at 38 Hz! ) The only other company I know that has done this (in a non-touring cabinet) is Yorkville, also with a 2 X 12" design
And the sound at medium volume is fantastic. Almost as tight and punchy as my old, sealed Bag End subs, but about twice as loud.
----------------------------
The problem is when they are pushed to just under where the limiter kicks in.
The drivers start to "fart" quite badly. (A highly technical term, which I'm sure you understand!) They are not breaking up, just mildly distorting in a very annoying way. There is also no coil rubbing when mechanically tested.
These are just really cheap speakers. They have smallish magnets, very little surround area, (they look more like guitar speakers than subs) and simple, non-reinforced baskets. They either don't have enough magnet to control them at high excursion, or the baskets themselves are flexing. - Or maybe that minimal surround makes them too stiff at high excursion?
FWIW, they are 4 ohm, 12" Celestion T5850A (AKA L172-124 )
Sadly, I can't get any info on these, from any source. Even Celestion has been no help. I did read a supposed repair tech's report, from someone who felt the same way once and took them to see if they were defective. That tech said the speakers were rated for 350w rms.
=========================================
SO HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS;
I am considering replacing these with Eminence Lab 12C drivers. These are excellent sub drivers, with lots of surround material and beefy baskets. They are still 4 ohm, and are rated at 500w rms. There's no doubt that they are far superiro drivers.
- BUT WILL THEY THEORETICALLY WORK GOOD IN MY EXISTING CABINETS, with the existing ports and electronics?
1: The first, big question is cabinet tuning. I'm assuming that the cubic volume should be OK, as a 12" is a 12", at a given frequency range. - But what about the theil-Small parameters?
Again, I can't get any specs on the Celestions, as there are not a stock retail item. Should I be concerned that the porting could be slightly off, or can I safely assume that, again, any 12" in that frequency range should be about the same?
2: Electronics: These subs have the typical protection found in most self-powered speakers. protection from amp overload, thermal peaks, and driver excursion. None of these should be a factor with replacement drivers that take MORE power. What concerns me is if there might be some other circuitry, such as phase correction or damping control.
2: Phase Correction: As a general rule, am I right to assume this would NOT be found in a subwoofer?
Damping Control: Would you expect to find this is a fairly low-cost, powered speaker? I'm assuming no, especially since the tech sheet doesn't mention it, but what is your gut feeling?
3: Efficiency: Again, no specs for the stock Celestions.
Is there a way for me to actually test my current drivers for aproximate efficiency? (I have some basic electronics gear, though no scope.)
If not - The Eminence Lab 12C has an efficiency rating of 89.2 dB. Does that seem high, low, or average? (If it's high, then of course I'm more willing to take a chance & try them.)
I realize that critical data is missing, but I'm hoping to get even just some basic opinions from you guys.
It's a lot of reading, so thanks in advance, if anyone can help even a little bit.
================================================
BACKGROUND:
I have just replaced my live-performance subs with Line 6 L3s's. These a a dual 12",front-loaded design. For several important reasons (ergonomics, electronics, etc) these are absolutely perfect for me. Unfortunately, I'm not happy about the sound when they are pushed hard.
I didn't expect them to be loud, so that's not it. In fact, I'm very happy that whomever designed them kept the porting small, and so willingly sacrificed overall output for frequency response. (They're 3 db dow at 38 Hz! ) The only other company I know that has done this (in a non-touring cabinet) is Yorkville, also with a 2 X 12" design
And the sound at medium volume is fantastic. Almost as tight and punchy as my old, sealed Bag End subs, but about twice as loud.
----------------------------
The problem is when they are pushed to just under where the limiter kicks in.
The drivers start to "fart" quite badly. (A highly technical term, which I'm sure you understand!) They are not breaking up, just mildly distorting in a very annoying way. There is also no coil rubbing when mechanically tested.
These are just really cheap speakers. They have smallish magnets, very little surround area, (they look more like guitar speakers than subs) and simple, non-reinforced baskets. They either don't have enough magnet to control them at high excursion, or the baskets themselves are flexing. - Or maybe that minimal surround makes them too stiff at high excursion?
FWIW, they are 4 ohm, 12" Celestion T5850A (AKA L172-124 )
Sadly, I can't get any info on these, from any source. Even Celestion has been no help. I did read a supposed repair tech's report, from someone who felt the same way once and took them to see if they were defective. That tech said the speakers were rated for 350w rms.
=========================================
SO HERE ARE MY QUESTIONS;
I am considering replacing these with Eminence Lab 12C drivers. These are excellent sub drivers, with lots of surround material and beefy baskets. They are still 4 ohm, and are rated at 500w rms. There's no doubt that they are far superiro drivers.
- BUT WILL THEY THEORETICALLY WORK GOOD IN MY EXISTING CABINETS, with the existing ports and electronics?
1: The first, big question is cabinet tuning. I'm assuming that the cubic volume should be OK, as a 12" is a 12", at a given frequency range. - But what about the theil-Small parameters?
Again, I can't get any specs on the Celestions, as there are not a stock retail item. Should I be concerned that the porting could be slightly off, or can I safely assume that, again, any 12" in that frequency range should be about the same?
2: Electronics: These subs have the typical protection found in most self-powered speakers. protection from amp overload, thermal peaks, and driver excursion. None of these should be a factor with replacement drivers that take MORE power. What concerns me is if there might be some other circuitry, such as phase correction or damping control.
2: Phase Correction: As a general rule, am I right to assume this would NOT be found in a subwoofer?
Damping Control: Would you expect to find this is a fairly low-cost, powered speaker? I'm assuming no, especially since the tech sheet doesn't mention it, but what is your gut feeling?
3: Efficiency: Again, no specs for the stock Celestions.
Is there a way for me to actually test my current drivers for aproximate efficiency? (I have some basic electronics gear, though no scope.)
If not - The Eminence Lab 12C has an efficiency rating of 89.2 dB. Does that seem high, low, or average? (If it's high, then of course I'm more willing to take a chance & try them.)
Hey, Brian.
For now, very good pics of this speaker can be seen here:
12" Celestion T5850A Line-6 (L172-124) speaker 4 ohms | #1852542630
------------------------------
This is the replacement I'm considering:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12C.pdf
These will make my subs rather heavy, (44 bs / pair vs 18 lbs / pr for the stock Celestions) but if the sound is cleaner, and the frequency response doesn't change "significantly" then it will be worth it.
For now, very good pics of this speaker can be seen here:
12" Celestion T5850A Line-6 (L172-124) speaker 4 ohms | #1852542630
------------------------------
This is the replacement I'm considering:
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12C.pdf
These will make my subs rather heavy, (44 bs / pair vs 18 lbs / pr for the stock Celestions) but if the sound is cleaner, and the frequency response doesn't change "significantly" then it will be worth it.
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More info:
internal volume of this cabinet: ~ 4.5 ft/3 (it's hard to measure exactly, due to internal bracing and the amp modules, but this is very close.)
Two Ports. Each: 3 7/8” diameter, and about 4” deep into the cabinet.
-------------------------
some specs from the Eminence LAB 12C spec sheet: (I don't understand most of this at all, though it appears that my enclosure volume, at least is near perfect.)
Recommended Enclosure Volume, Vented: 1.5 - 5 cu ft
Fs 23 Hz
Re 3.11 ohms
Le 1.09 mh Qms 11.7
Qes 0.34
Qts 0.33
VAS 4.53 cu ft
VD 659 cc
CMS 0.36 mm/N
BL 13.36 T-M
Mms 13.36 T-M
EBP 67
Sd 506.7 cm2
internal volume of this cabinet: ~ 4.5 ft/3 (it's hard to measure exactly, due to internal bracing and the amp modules, but this is very close.)
Two Ports. Each: 3 7/8” diameter, and about 4” deep into the cabinet.
-------------------------
some specs from the Eminence LAB 12C spec sheet: (I don't understand most of this at all, though it appears that my enclosure volume, at least is near perfect.)
Recommended Enclosure Volume, Vented: 1.5 - 5 cu ft
Fs 23 Hz
Re 3.11 ohms
Le 1.09 mh Qms 11.7
Qes 0.34
Qts 0.33
VAS 4.53 cu ft
VD 659 cc
CMS 0.36 mm/N
BL 13.36 T-M
Mms 13.36 T-M
EBP 67
Sd 506.7 cm2
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For those following along, this is an active subwoofer, with lots of DSP on-board.
For that reason, I wouldn't bother swapping the drivers. Here's why:
- The drivers currently installed will have a particular EQ curve applied to them to get them usefully flat in that box. A different driver will need a different EQ curve, so throwing them in at random will hurt the sound quality at lower levels.
- Cabinets like this usually have a variety of limiters available, including over-excursion, RMS limiting, and peak limiting. What applied to their drivers in their box will not apply to any other driver in that box. It might take 200w for their driver to hit Xmax at some frequency, while a different driver might need 500w. Their amplifier will still limit at 200w, so there really isn't much to be gained at high levels, either.
- A driver with more displacement needs bigger ports. A LAB12 would laugh at a single 4" port.
In my opinion, it might have been worth scouring the fora before buying those subs.
For example, the 15" PA sub that was designed between me and tb46 is excellent - Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
Buying everything brand-new (with an NU6000DSP that could power four) would set you back about as much as one of those Line6 subs, and I'd bet money the 15" would go at least as loud, if not louder. Smaller box, too, at around 650x440x440mm.
If you're really set on dropping LAB12 drivers into those cabinets, I hope you've got some decent measurement gear to re-EQ them, and it won't go much/any louder, but the drivers probably won't distort until the amplifier limits.
Chris
For that reason, I wouldn't bother swapping the drivers. Here's why:
- The drivers currently installed will have a particular EQ curve applied to them to get them usefully flat in that box. A different driver will need a different EQ curve, so throwing them in at random will hurt the sound quality at lower levels.
- Cabinets like this usually have a variety of limiters available, including over-excursion, RMS limiting, and peak limiting. What applied to their drivers in their box will not apply to any other driver in that box. It might take 200w for their driver to hit Xmax at some frequency, while a different driver might need 500w. Their amplifier will still limit at 200w, so there really isn't much to be gained at high levels, either.
- A driver with more displacement needs bigger ports. A LAB12 would laugh at a single 4" port.
In my opinion, it might have been worth scouring the fora before buying those subs.
For example, the 15" PA sub that was designed between me and tb46 is excellent - Teeny tiny PA 15" subwoofer
Buying everything brand-new (with an NU6000DSP that could power four) would set you back about as much as one of those Line6 subs, and I'd bet money the 15" would go at least as loud, if not louder. Smaller box, too, at around 650x440x440mm.
If you're really set on dropping LAB12 drivers into those cabinets, I hope you've got some decent measurement gear to re-EQ them, and it won't go much/any louder, but the drivers probably won't distort until the amplifier limits.
Chris
Those "woofers" look more like mids to me.
Like already mentioned the plate amp is most likely tailored to the speaker/enclosure combination with tons of processing.
Replacing just the speakers will get you nowhere really.
Also the labs need much more port area.
I would just replace the whole thing with a decent diy sub.
Less hassle and guaranteed to work.
Like already mentioned the plate amp is most likely tailored to the speaker/enclosure combination with tons of processing.
Replacing just the speakers will get you nowhere really.
Also the labs need much more port area.
I would just replace the whole thing with a decent diy sub.
Less hassle and guaranteed to work.
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You guys are probably right about the corrective EQ.
regarding over-excursion & and peak limiting, that's not a factor, because the Eminence can take alot more power. The Line 6 electronics would simply kick in sooner than they need, but it would still match the amps.
About the porting: I figured I'd have to modify them, but I probably wouldn't have to change too much. I'm not looking for more output, I'm looking for bass extension. Doesn't a smaller port extend the LF, at the expense of output?
Well, it still won't work I guess, due to the corrective EQ.
Say, I just had a thought: Tomorrow I'll run a tone sweep through the amps, and see if there is, in fact any corrective EQ. If there is, and I can get some graphs from Eminence (or some kind soul here) MAYBE it wouldn't be such a mis-match after all.
I don't have high hopes, though.
-------------------------------------
I'm not going with custom subs, though. I need self-powered, with built-in crossovers. Not enough room in my truck, not enough time for the extra setup. Not with the kind of gigs I do these days. Also, the L3S is exactly the right height to serve as a keyboard stand, so it makes a very compact setup.
I'm just stunned at how crappy these things sound when pushed. They get incredible reviews from everyone who ever posted about them. Go figure...
Maybe I'll sell them and go back to my old QSC KW181's, but those kind of suck also, and they're harder to carry. (I'm a one man show.)
The best ever was my four non-ported 18" Bag Ends, driven by Lab Gruppen amps. Amazing sound, but horribly inefficient. I got tired of blowing $4,000 amps (I had three, kept in rotation as they melted.) and circuit breakers.
^ True story.
Sigh ....
regarding over-excursion & and peak limiting, that's not a factor, because the Eminence can take alot more power. The Line 6 electronics would simply kick in sooner than they need, but it would still match the amps.
About the porting: I figured I'd have to modify them, but I probably wouldn't have to change too much. I'm not looking for more output, I'm looking for bass extension. Doesn't a smaller port extend the LF, at the expense of output?
Well, it still won't work I guess, due to the corrective EQ.
Say, I just had a thought: Tomorrow I'll run a tone sweep through the amps, and see if there is, in fact any corrective EQ. If there is, and I can get some graphs from Eminence (or some kind soul here) MAYBE it wouldn't be such a mis-match after all.
I don't have high hopes, though.
-------------------------------------
I'm not going with custom subs, though. I need self-powered, with built-in crossovers. Not enough room in my truck, not enough time for the extra setup. Not with the kind of gigs I do these days. Also, the L3S is exactly the right height to serve as a keyboard stand, so it makes a very compact setup.
I'm just stunned at how crappy these things sound when pushed. They get incredible reviews from everyone who ever posted about them. Go figure...
Maybe I'll sell them and go back to my old QSC KW181's, but those kind of suck also, and they're harder to carry. (I'm a one man show.)
The best ever was my four non-ported 18" Bag Ends, driven by Lab Gruppen amps. Amazing sound, but horribly inefficient. I got tired of blowing $4,000 amps (I had three, kept in rotation as they melted.) and circuit breakers.
^ True story.
Sigh ....
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Maybe someone can make a suggestion if we would know max. price, max. size, min. power, min. db, crossover freq range, number of subs, location(s), type of music, low freq response, max. weight, and maybe some information about the tops, etc.
If you sweep just the amp you still won`t know about the enclosure tuning, response, also there is no fr graph of the celestion...
Here is the Eminence, but it is more of a car woofer than PA:
www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12.pdf
If you sweep just the amp you still won`t know about the enclosure tuning, response, also there is no fr graph of the celestion...
Here is the Eminence, but it is more of a car woofer than PA:
www.eminence.com/pdf/LAB_12.pdf
The Line6 electronics would limit early, so you're not getting the most out of your drivers. The LAB12 drivers will probably take a lot more abuse than the ones installed, though, so if the unhappy noises are due to driver stress then the new drivers might well fix it. Assuming, of course, you can sort out the corrective EQ.
A smaller port area will drop the tuning (with any changes on the frequency response that would imply), and will "chuff" at higher volumes. A chuffing port is bad - there's so much turbulence that you're looking at serious changes to the frequency response (many dB loss around the port tuning), as well as the ugly noises associated with the turbulence itself.
Larger port areas will let more air through, so they don't chuff so easily.
On the Bag End subs, I'm not surprised you were struggling to get enough level out of them. 113dB maximum at 40Hz really isn't much (though IIRC the KW181 manages a similar number).
I ran sealed boxes for my PA system for a while, and found I needed a lot of cone area even at fairly small gigs. Swapped the drivers over to ported, and there's a new level of "grunt" available.
I'm surprised you were melting amplifiers, though - Lab make some good stuff. The 18" Bag End subs I pulled the datasheets for were rated for 400w AES, with a recommended amplifier power of up to 800w. 8ohm. Shouldn't be a problem driving a pile of those with most amplifiers.
Where abouts in the world are you?
In the unlikely event you're around Sheffield I'd be happy to let you try a couple of those 15"s.
Chris
Thanks, guys. Even though there's a lot of reasons to give up, I have reasons to keep experimenting, and this information is VERY helpful.
If some company would just make a GOOD small sub, that's designed for great sound instead of the holy decibel rating, I wouldn't be in this mess.
Actually, Line 6 DID, ( -3dB at 38 Hz ) but they screwed up the design somewhere.
Yorkville also designed a dual-12" with excellent low extension. But sadly that cab is 120 lbs. More than I can deal with on my own.
------------------------
I would build my own bloody subs, maybe a powered 15", if I could just buy a user-configurable amp module, with a built-in crossover, driver protection, etc. Four of those would probably do any gig I'll encounter, with not-too-bad efficiency. But alas.....
If some company would just make a GOOD small sub, that's designed for great sound instead of the holy decibel rating, I wouldn't be in this mess.
Actually, Line 6 DID, ( -3dB at 38 Hz ) but they screwed up the design somewhere.
Yorkville also designed a dual-12" with excellent low extension. But sadly that cab is 120 lbs. More than I can deal with on my own.
------------------------
I would build my own bloody subs, maybe a powered 15", if I could just buy a user-configurable amp module, with a built-in crossover, driver protection, etc. Four of those would probably do any gig I'll encounter, with not-too-bad efficiency. But alas.....
VERY interesting. I'm instantly wondering if THAT'S what I'm hearing, since these boxes are tuned more for extension than volume.
But interestingly, If I'm pumping some dance groove through them, (at near the max volume) and I close one of the two round ports with my hand (It just barely fits over one) the sub sounds about 1,000 times BETTER. I do instantly hear more LF extension, and not in an "un-tuned" way, either, and much of that distortion goes away.
AND, there isn't even a noticeable drop in volume.
I'm actually considering closing off one port with MDF, even though that seems fairly insane.
Does the above make any sense to you?
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Excellent idea.
I didn't realize I could measure T/S myself, but I just found a good article on how. I have the equipment needed, so I'll have at it:
Measuring Loudspeaker Driver Parameters
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As for the corrective EQ, I figure that if both speakers have the same low end response and resonant frequency, then it should be close. If not, I can use external correction to get things flat.
The other important factor, though, is efficiency: That Lab12 is probably a good candidate because it has about the same resonant frequency (not many 12's get down near 20 Hz) but it is not super-efficient. If I swapped drivers, got better sound, but lose 3 dB, that would be the end of this experiment, and money down the toilet.
I can only fit three of these subs in my truck, and the two I have now are not cutting it. (I do both live music and DJ'ing.)
I fear that most drives that can take more power (if there even ARE any others that go low enough) will sort of automatically be less efficient.
Well, it's becoming a very interesting journey, at least.
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If you sold the Line6 subs as they are, roughly how much would you get?
An NU6000DSP would run 4x 15" subs, and I'd be happy to give you the full complement of DSP settings for the 15" sub I mentioned earlier in the thread.
I understand you don't want to use passive subs with an outboard amplifier, but one of those amps (heck, two) are much much cheaper than a plate amp with comparable power output and DSP.
If you're interested, I'd be happy to come up with a fool-proof cabling scheme, too.
I've had doors rattling in village halls with two of them.
Chris
I had a look at that page - it's based off a manual process outlined on one of the pages on my site. It works, but their are easier methods. REW for example can calculate t/s parameters. Just put together an impedance jig for it (Google it - it's pretty easy to do), measure the driver's impedance curve, and then use REW to calculate the parameters from the curve.
Some of the specs from that L3 subwoofer look a bit "strange" though. The claimed performance is +/- 3dB from 38 Hz to 910 Hz, suggesting an Fb around 38 Hz, but the literature talks about applying boost at 30 Hz in the "ultra-bass" mode. Well, the one thing that you SHOULD NOT do with a vented sub is apply boost BELOW Fb, so that makes me wonder if it's actually tuned to 30 Hz, and active EQ is used above that to flatten the passband.
If the Fb of the design IS 30 Hz, then to me this suggests that this is some sort of 6th order alignment, with a bit of a boost above Fb to flatten the response. You can confirm this by connecting a true RMS-capable multimeter across the driver's terminals and checking the voltage generated by the amp across it when fed sine waves at 30 Hz and above.
The size of the enclosure also suggests that there's about 3 cu.ft. or less for each 12" driver, likely less when the volume taken up by the amp, vents and driver is taken into place. This looks decent for a LAB12 build, but if there's some sort of active EQ going on like I mentioned above, you might not get the best results.
Oh, concerning your comments about your experience blocking one of the vents, this might happen if the vents are tuned pretty low. There's not a lot of music that reaches down to 30 Hz, if that's the actual Fb, and blocking one of the vents will push Fb even lower.
Thx, Chris.
I am actually starting to consider building my own. And single 15's are probably the way to go: More efficient than 12's, (depending on what article you believe) but small enough that a "no compromise" cabinet can be built that I can still easily carry.
I'm skeptical of a horn-loaded box, though. Don't those require a long distance for the sound to "develop?" I need subs that work at ten feet or less.
--------------------------
But I am absolutely not using external amps again, certainly not Berringher! (That amp is garbage, hence the low price.)
I already own FOUR Lab Gruppen fp6400's (cost over $4k each) But I need to minimize my load time as much as possible.
Sadly, the hunt for a quality plate amp (class D, and no switching psu) is turning into a swamp. Rythmik Audio has some decent servo plate amps, but they're class H. For a mobile DJ, dealing with lights, outdoor gigs, and typically one single 15a circuit, that's a potential problem. Hypex used to make an "OK" class D, but it's now discontinued. There are a ton of crappy class D plate amps available, (Dayton, Bash, etc) but I'm not going near them.
This just sucks .....
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Looks like you've been fed misinformation.
That sub is ported.
Horn loaded subs work at any distance.
An NU6000 is a decent budget amp. The best tests came back well - 1.8KW/ch into 4ohm, both channels driven, with 0.3% distortion or less. Sure, you can get better amps. In terms of value for money, though, you can't beat them.
You're more than welcome to power the subs with whatever you like. I use an MA12000i, but it needs a processor. I recommend at least 1KW per box.
Feel free to do some more reading around before discounting things based on hearsay.
Chris
That sub is ported.
Horn loaded subs work at any distance.
An NU6000 is a decent budget amp. The best tests came back well - 1.8KW/ch into 4ohm, both channels driven, with 0.3% distortion or less. Sure, you can get better amps. In terms of value for money, though, you can't beat them.
You're more than welcome to power the subs with whatever you like. I use an MA12000i, but it needs a processor. I recommend at least 1KW per box.
Feel free to do some more reading around before discounting things based on hearsay.
Chris
^ It's not hearsay. (though it might in fact be heresy.)
Back in my younger days (the 1980's) it was "standard knowledge" that you shouldn't use a folded horn for near-field use. Everyone just "knew" this to be true. Something about the soundwaves need one full cycle before they were supported, or something.
I admit it sounds odd, but I also remember standing in front of some big cans at an outdoor event, and there way almost no bass hitting me, so it must be true.
Maybe it only applies to fully folded horns, like the classic (and crappy) Cerwin Vega of the day?
----------
Anyway, the one thing that seems to definitely be correct is that ANY horn design requires a lot of volume in order to get good bass extension. I was looking at the Danley single 12" (the "THMini", I think) at it rolls off a cliff below 50 Hz. That's just not going to do it for me. The JT Growler seems like a better fit. - Just starting to get heavy, but manageable, and flat to about 42 Hz IIRC.
They don't make it any longer, (oddly, they now have a dual 12" similar to the Line 6) but that might be a good design for me to pursue, with a very efficient 12" driver.
I'd only be able to fit two of these in my truck, though, and that really scares me, regarding total output.
What do you think?
Back in my younger days (the 1980's) it was "standard knowledge" that you shouldn't use a folded horn for near-field use. Everyone just "knew" this to be true. Something about the soundwaves need one full cycle before they were supported, or something.
I admit it sounds odd, but I also remember standing in front of some big cans at an outdoor event, and there way almost no bass hitting me, so it must be true.
Maybe it only applies to fully folded horns, like the classic (and crappy) Cerwin Vega of the day?
----------
Anyway, the one thing that seems to definitely be correct is that ANY horn design requires a lot of volume in order to get good bass extension. I was looking at the Danley single 12" (the "THMini", I think) at it rolls off a cliff below 50 Hz. That's just not going to do it for me. The JT Growler seems like a better fit. - Just starting to get heavy, but manageable, and flat to about 42 Hz IIRC.
They don't make it any longer, (oddly, they now have a dual 12" similar to the Line 6) but that might be a good design for me to pursue, with a very efficient 12" driver.
I'd only be able to fit two of these in my truck, though, and that really scares me, regarding total output.
What do you think?
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I have used that sub on numerous occasions but I'm not crazy about the sound.. there is something not quite right about it. The PS15s on the other hand sounds great, it is heavy for it's size but it is so small it is an easy lift.. worth checking out IMO.
I'm not sure the Lab12 would be a good choice for your other experiment, it can handle more peak power but it has very low sensitivity so I'm afraid you would lose a lot of SPL above 50-60hz where sensitivity begins to take over from xmax as the dominate parameter determining output.
Something else you can try to figure out what is causing the noise you are hearing. If you have another passive sub like a big old dual 18 or similar is connect the amp module from the L3 to it and run it up to limiting, if it runs clean then you know the problem is with the drivers or the cabinet/ports, but if still farts you know its the amp that is the problem. Yes an amp that has poor limiting or none at all can make farting noises I have seen this first hand.
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^ VERY helpful info & thoughts, Conanski!
Glad to hear the Yokville isn't all that. I think maybe part of the problem is the distortion caused by 2 drivers in one enclosure. (Unless the Yorkie has an internal divider.)
Or maybe port chuffing, as was mentioned earlier. Maybe when you use smaller ports on a smallish enclosure, to get more LF extension, that's a negative effect that can't be avoided?
- And GREAT idea trying the Line 6 amps with a different sub. As it happens, I have some sealed 18's, which is as clean as you can get. I'll try that tomorrow.
As fr the Lab12's, yeah I was worried about that. It seems most drivers that can take a lot of power are also not very efficient. The few exceptions I've found, so far, have a much-too-high Fs. I wish I could get the specs for the stock Celestions, but I've exhausted every idea on that. Line 6 doesn't give a fig, Celestion won't tell me, no tech has the info ......
I can't even find a tech with the calibrations docs for the amps! (Line 6 won't provide them, and Hypex won't help with custom OEM products)
It's like The Twilight Zone.
Glad to hear the Yokville isn't all that. I think maybe part of the problem is the distortion caused by 2 drivers in one enclosure. (Unless the Yorkie has an internal divider.)
Or maybe port chuffing, as was mentioned earlier. Maybe when you use smaller ports on a smallish enclosure, to get more LF extension, that's a negative effect that can't be avoided?
- And GREAT idea trying the Line 6 amps with a different sub. As it happens, I have some sealed 18's, which is as clean as you can get. I'll try that tomorrow.
As fr the Lab12's, yeah I was worried about that. It seems most drivers that can take a lot of power are also not very efficient. The few exceptions I've found, so far, have a much-too-high Fs. I wish I could get the specs for the stock Celestions, but I've exhausted every idea on that. Line 6 doesn't give a fig, Celestion won't tell me, no tech has the info ......
I can't even find a tech with the calibrations docs for the amps! (Line 6 won't provide them, and Hypex won't help with custom OEM products)
It's like The Twilight Zone.
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