All I can say is - what sells the most is not what you buy. How well does the best selling EDM represent the entire genre? Good question. But I don't see how that makes this forum insulated from the rest of the world. When I see the music people talk about here, it's pretty much whatever is popular.
Are you sure you aren't confusing what's what's actually on the recordings with the way they are played back? Most live P.A.s I work with are very bass heavy, and that's done on purpose - to allow massive amounts of bass for shows. It's mostly mid bass, but it's nowhere near flat. If you are hoping to imitate that at home or in your car, you need a bass gain far above the rest of the spectrum. It's not the same thing as what's on the recordings. Boosting the bass at playback and the content of the recordings are different things.
Are you sure you aren't confusing what's what's actually on the recordings with the way they are played back? Most live P.A.s I work with are very bass heavy, and that's done on purpose - to allow massive amounts of bass for shows. It's mostly mid bass, but it's nowhere near flat. If you are hoping to imitate that at home or in your car, you need a bass gain far above the rest of the spectrum. It's not the same thing as what's on the recordings. Boosting the bass at playback and the content of the recordings are different things.
Here's an interesting, if somewhat extreme example of a song by a folk musician with significant content below 30hz, all the way down to 5hz. Just a short snippet from the start, unmodified IKTB.wav - Google Drive
There should be a download link in the top right hand corner? (arrow pointing down)
What can I say? Eight 18 inch high excursion subs playing down to single digit frequencies is pretty much de rigueur on avs, how many people on this forum have anything close to that? Do you think the people that have systems like that are listening to the same media you are? Do you think the 18 year old car audio guys are listening to the same media you listen to? They listen to stuff that makes their system shine.
Do you have forum stats for average age? I'm betting it's 60+ here and that crowd certainly won't be listening to the same stuff the young guys with a couple of 32 inch high stroke subs listen to.
Hang out on avs forum for a week and you'll see stuff you can't even imagine - you won't care much for it but that's not the point. It's a whole other world over there. It's the land of 140 db at 8 hz.
I already showed you a bunch of bass content master lists in the other thread, they all have frequency response pictures, a good amount of the movies go down to 3 or 4 hz. I have at least a dozen songs that go below 10 hz (and I can't even reproduce that yet). I analyze my tracks to see what's actually there.
It's all thoroughly documented so no, I don't think I'm confusing what's actually on the recordings. It's not uncommon to boost the lows because who wants to hear the whole spectrum at 140 db? That's fine for low bass but not for anything else.
I was just providing an alternate point of view on the "there's nothing below 30 hz" argument. There's a whole world down there and it adds a whole other dimension (tactile low bass has to be experienced to be understood).
I completely understand that you, the OP, Pano and Planet 10 will never be even slightly interested and shouldn't even bother to try but that doesn't mean it's pointless or that thousands of people point their interests in this hobby directly toward the lower frequencies. People here like fullrange drivers. People on other forums like 32 inch sub drivers. People like different stuff and I'm not a special case, I'm a moderate that sees value in both camps but I won't ever be satisfied with a 32 hz limit.
I completely understand that you, the OP, Pano and Planet 10 will never be even slightly interested and shouldn't even bother to try but that doesn't mean it's pointless or that thousands of people point their interests in this hobby directly toward the lower frequencies. People here like fullrange drivers. People on other forums like 32 inch sub drivers. People like different stuff and I'm not a special case, I'm a moderate that sees value in both camps but I won't ever be satisfied with a 32 hz limit.
My Hucci & favourite DnB artists would definitely sound thin without the sub-bass. I actually tried it!
I love to experiment from time to time and I used a steep roll-off at 35Hz in Foobar with XOver, and it didn't sound very pleasant at all. You hear a high bass note, deeper bass note, and suddenly.. "nothing". Nothing where your mind expects something even when you've never heard it before (say for people with cheap subwoofers).
Now that's anticlimactic, isn't it? I don't think that causes for a very pleasant listening experience. :')
I love to experiment from time to time and I used a steep roll-off at 35Hz in Foobar with XOver, and it didn't sound very pleasant at all. You hear a high bass note, deeper bass note, and suddenly.. "nothing". Nothing where your mind expects something even when you've never heard it before (say for people with cheap subwoofers).
Now that's anticlimactic, isn't it? I don't think that causes for a very pleasant listening experience. :')
Forget sustained bass tones as an argument for needing reproduction below 40. Go back to your Fourier transforms and what causal systems mean. Frequency content in any real system approaches zero hertz. It may be a very small amount but it is there. Without it, it sounds thin and artificial. To me, even folk music which only has fundamentals to 82 Hz doesn't really sound "real" unless response approaches 20 Hz. You can't really hear a kick drum (even a "dry" one) breathe if you high pass at the 65 hz fundamental. Frequency content goes below that. If you look at the spectrum of your favorite EDM track, it doesn't have a spike at that one low bass note. It has a haystack centered on it, going both above and below. It is the nature of any periodic signal whose amplitude is non constant with time - the spectrum is not discrete, it is continuous. My main home system is monkey coffins with f3 of 23. Won't produce 130dB down there but for music it doesn't need to. For PA I consider 30 a realistic compromise.
Me too, but being blessed growing up regularly experiencing large pipe organs in large Ga. Granite and/or Marble constructed churches, 16 Hz is my practical musical limit and having experienced really loud infrabass [500 lb TNT bomb simulator, Saturn V launch at 3 mi.], then if my house's construction could take the pounding of high power single digit HT LFE, I'd do it as loud as me and it could 'afford'. Unfortunately, it can't even handle 16 Hz
, so short of moving to one that can [not likely] it will remain a 'pipe dream'.GM
The correct answer is "it depends".
For example, at home I like my system to do deep, but it doesn't have to do very loud, so a 10" vented subwoofer capable of reaching 20 Hz is just fine for my needs.
In my car, I want it to sound like a good PA system, and the fact that it can reach very low frequencies is simply due to cabin again. <10 Hz at over 120dB? Yes, two good 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure driven by 1.2kW of power can do that.
For my little mini-PA systems that are designed with portability in mind, I aim for 40 Hz. I'd aim higher if I wanted them to be louder, but I find it very hard to design and build a subwoofer that's not capable of at least 40 Hz.
One of the most popular DJs on the island plays with old Yorkville LS1801 subwoofers. Those are -3dB at 45 Hz. None of his patrons complain about missing bass
For example, at home I like my system to do deep, but it doesn't have to do very loud, so a 10" vented subwoofer capable of reaching 20 Hz is just fine for my needs.
In my car, I want it to sound like a good PA system, and the fact that it can reach very low frequencies is simply due to cabin again. <10 Hz at over 120dB? Yes, two good 12" drivers in a sealed enclosure driven by 1.2kW of power can do that.
For my little mini-PA systems that are designed with portability in mind, I aim for 40 Hz. I'd aim higher if I wanted them to be louder, but I find it very hard to design and build a subwoofer that's not capable of at least 40 Hz.
One of the most popular DJs on the island plays with old Yorkville LS1801 subwoofers. Those are -3dB at 45 Hz. None of his patrons complain about missing bass
You might be best off listening to setups that have great bass and see what your preferences are. I have a pair of sealed 18's that have an in room response below 10hz and i pick up plenty of low frequency content in lots of different music genres that i haven't heard on any other setup - and I don't listen to much electronic music
One of the most popular DJs on the island plays with old Yorkville LS1801 subwoofers. Those are -3dB at 45 Hz. None of his patrons complain about missing bass
True, but give them some big 30Hz THs for a week and they might find the Yorkies lacking afterwards.
FWIW, I find 40Hz to be a decent compromise for PA. Solid at 40Hz is streets ahead of what most portable systems will do - the Yamaha 15" PA sub is -10dB at 45Hz!
I'd quite like to go to 30Hz, but the size and/or power requirements go up exponentially.
Chris
Few thoughts,
Pitch acquisition stops for most if not all people around 28Hz. Me, 27.5Hz.
While not directly related to bass acquisition, many peoples minds perceive auditory events below 10Hz and above 5Hz, (specifically sweet spotted around 7.5Hz), as tones shifting from continuous to discrete events. It's interesting how arpeggio's sped up through this frequency range go from trills to held chords as the alternating notes begin to change faster than 7.5Hz.
In studio work (which I'm terribly behind on now due to this forum, I often high-pass vocal tracks above 50Hz, instruments above 100Hz (depending on what they are) and work to clean-out the bass region so we have more headroom for instruments that are actually talking with those frequencies. This is partly to get rid of footsteps and city-buses that rolled by causing microphonics through the mic-stand, but mostly for dynamic range and the contrast it brings.
So, yeah, I'm in the bass is very important camp, but I'm also aware of how much of it is eliminated in modern production, and for good reason, spurious sub-harmonics eat up head room that could be used to send intentional signals. Imagine 30+ tracks, all with sub-bass and mid-bass content summing together. I'm sure you can see how this mixing situation would result in a muddy build-up of harmonics competing for those low frequencies. So yeah, an HPF is more often engaged on individual sources than not, the intention being to only allow the bass that is desired. However, sometimes the deep bass is killed too (like PANO was describing in his EMD survey post), because such commercial work is designed to be louder than it's neighbors and RMS based loudness, (achieved by brickwall limiting), and deep bass do not go hand in hand as the deep bass eats up all the headroom which the engineer might want to give to frequencies that are psycho-acoustically louder and more readily available from the average consumer setup.
I don't know if any others have experienced this, but I've had it happen twice that a forum thread of deep bass reference tracks has so much underwhelming content (which is attributed to VLF (when it is clearly not) or deep bass when it is more often the 2nd harmonic the listener seemed to be enjoying (chest impact range) . Such threads re-affirm my position that what most people think is bass is actually distortion, or smeared room pressurization, or higher frequencies that are being attributed as low (simply because of the physicality). Which brings me to, what are these people not-listening with?
In my experience quite a few bass-reflex and bandpass type subs of greater than 15" are one-noteish (unless such a large driver is horn loaded). From a mixing perspective I've found the group delay of these alignments to blur the low tones, especially the signals below 35Hz. It's surprising when a track has 30Hz content and 60Hz content (distinct and at different times) and studio sub-woofer makes the exact same sound for both. And not just in situations where it's harmonic integrals.
So yeah, the accuracy with which one can realize low frequencies is compromised in most/all sub designs, && beyond that, I'm skeptical of room gain helping with detail retrieval. Am I incorrect thinking room gain sacrifices transients on the alter of time?
I'm glad some of us care about LF between 28Hz and 40Hz because those frequencies if produced accurately with the right kind of waveform(s) can be incredible. And in that odd situation where moving dust at 12Hz is appropriate and the system can just barely manage well, expletive expletive expletive.
Pitch acquisition stops for most if not all people around 28Hz. Me, 27.5Hz.
While not directly related to bass acquisition, many peoples minds perceive auditory events below 10Hz and above 5Hz, (specifically sweet spotted around 7.5Hz), as tones shifting from continuous to discrete events. It's interesting how arpeggio's sped up through this frequency range go from trills to held chords as the alternating notes begin to change faster than 7.5Hz.
In studio work (which I'm terribly behind on now due to this forum
, I often high-pass vocal tracks above 50Hz, instruments above 100Hz (depending on what they are) and work to clean-out the bass region so we have more headroom for instruments that are actually talking with those frequencies. This is partly to get rid of footsteps and city-buses that rolled by causing microphonics through the mic-stand, but mostly for dynamic range and the contrast it brings.So, yeah, I'm in the bass is very important camp, but I'm also aware of how much of it is eliminated in modern production, and for good reason, spurious sub-harmonics eat up head room that could be used to send intentional signals. Imagine 30+ tracks, all with sub-bass and mid-bass content summing together. I'm sure you can see how this mixing situation would result in a muddy build-up of harmonics competing for those low frequencies. So yeah, an HPF is more often engaged on individual sources than not, the intention being to only allow the bass that is desired. However, sometimes the deep bass is killed too (like PANO was describing in his EMD survey post), because such commercial work is designed to be louder than it's neighbors and RMS based loudness, (achieved by brickwall limiting), and deep bass do not go hand in hand as the deep bass eats up all the headroom which the engineer might want to give to frequencies that are psycho-acoustically louder and more readily available from the average consumer setup.
I don't know if any others have experienced this, but I've had it happen twice that a forum thread of deep bass reference tracks has so much underwhelming content (which is attributed to VLF (when it is clearly not) or deep bass when it is more often the 2nd harmonic the listener seemed to be enjoying (chest impact range) . Such threads re-affirm my position that what most people think is bass is actually distortion, or smeared room pressurization, or higher frequencies that are being attributed as low (simply because of the physicality). Which brings me to, what are these people not-listening with?
In my experience quite a few bass-reflex and bandpass type subs of greater than 15" are one-noteish (unless such a large driver is horn loaded). From a mixing perspective I've found the group delay of these alignments to blur the low tones, especially the signals below 35Hz. It's surprising when a track has 30Hz content and 60Hz content (distinct and at different times) and studio sub-woofer makes the exact same sound for both. And not just in situations where it's harmonic integrals.
So yeah, the accuracy with which one can realize low frequencies is compromised in most/all sub designs, && beyond that, I'm skeptical of room gain helping with detail retrieval. Am I incorrect thinking room gain sacrifices transients on the alter of time?
I'm glad some of us care about LF between 28Hz and 40Hz because those frequencies if produced accurately with the right kind of waveform(s) can be incredible. And in that odd situation where moving dust at 12Hz is appropriate and the system can just barely manage well, expletive expletive expletive.
I'm a rocker and am quite happy with 40hz for music. The obsession for extreme low end is somewhat comical to me. “It goes to 11”. I think this obsession should be focused on reducing reverb time and controlling room modes. These will have a far larger improvement in the listening experience than <20hz subs. Now, if you’ve got these in order, I’ll allow the debate to rage on. That said, I see all too often HUGE outrageous systems and a room with no regard for acoustics…
A few more thoughts,
Back 25 years ago--in my DJ days, my system had an F3 of 40Hz and it worked OK. Throwing some of the dance/techno/rap of the time in with my 40Hz high pass disabled would cause some severe overdrive of the six 15" woofers I used at the time. Since I didn't want to turn my 15's into rice hats, I'd listen to the new music at lower levels and noted that 40Hz would not reproduce the music from the early 90's full bandwidth. Not a big issue because at the time a solid 40Hz did the trick. Sure, I wanted to get 30Hz but my back and vehicle could not handle the weight/size required while keeping required power reasonable to not blow breakers.
Listened to Enya Sheppard Moons on a HT system (25Hz F3) and headphones and there was some deep stuff and I recall it was 24Hz? These days I don't do the DJ thing anymore but have an HT system that does 18Hz in room. Out in my garage, I DIY'd a pair of push-pull slot loaded subs tuned to 24Hz. The subs are flat to the high 20's then roll off with usable response down to the low 20's thanks to garage gain and so on.
My sons tend to like bass heavy music, some of it has been modified to go very deep. To teach them about bass response is rather simple, I tape a piece of paper to hang down in front of the PPSL slot (very active over 32Hz with another piece of paper placed in front of the 24Hz tuned port. Most music from the 60's to the mid 80's won't move the paper in front of the port with heavy flapping in front of the slot taking center stage. However, they throw in some KLF etc. and the port starts to move air. They grab some of my remixes from the mid 90's and it is obvious deeper bass is creeping in. Fast forward to this century and those poor PPSLs are pushing some air through the port.
Read an article at ProSoundWeb a few years back that addressed how club and band music keeps dropping down in frequency as technology allows it's use. It was called 25Hz is the new 50Hz and basically pointed out you need 25Hz response at around -6dB if you amplify modern dance music. Most bass guitars are drop tuned to 31.5Hz or lower and a piano has a 27.5Hz low note so it makes sense.
I'll throw in my two cents and state at the minimum you should have high powered music only subs go down to 27.5Hz (preferred) or 31.5Hz minimum if the lower tuning is impossible to move/amplify etc. If your gig is a country band or oldies, you can get away with 40Hz tuning but it better have a strong high pass to protect the system from the latest song on the phone trick. One must also remember that history supports the frequency required going down and unless you replace the subs every year--you have to look forward to estimate the demands in the long run.
For HT use, the 1990 THX standard had it pegged at 20Hz -6dB and that works. The IMAX standard is 20Hz -3dB and I looked at Interstellar charts to figure out the worm hole scene. Max output at 22Hz but still strong output down to 18Hz and my poor HT sub reproduced the 18Hz with some strain. Yes, building two more subs that will do 16Hz usable in the room. I would love to have 7Hz performance to do Blackhawk Down (1998) and Edge of Tomorrow but my house can't handle that--if the OCD kicks in I'll get some bass shakers to massage the couch and not break windows or crack drywall.
My "validation" is the low note on a piano or 27.5Hz as a "music" sub. Since the system is for music, it should produce 99.9% of all music (8Hz pipe organs is up to you!) Once you start throwing away classical music, EDM, rap, modern rock and so on...call it what it is, classic rock or "analog" music reproduction. If you limit yourself to guitar/drums/bass guitar music then going higher is fine. Since people now carry their music collections in their pocket, it is best for me as a music system to at least try to get down into the high 20's frequency range. My sons hooked up some of that decaf stuff and that 24Hz port was pumping serious air and I was thankful for my 21Hz high pass filter.
The downsides of subs or mains going down to 27.5Hz are many, if you do PA/club music it can be very expensive and back breaking to get there...try for 31.5Hz although you might have to build your own subs. The 18" sub boxes don't really go much lower than they did 20 years ago due to cost, size and weight--I understand fully! When I looked into getting 30 to 32Hz response in the 90's, there were subs available but more for actual theaters and club installs instead of transportable. This is changing though, I've noticed some manufacturers are getting down to close to 30Hz or lower at a smaller size. Physics being what it is, the efficiency drops a bit but that can be made up with by having more subs. My back hurts thinking about moving eight 18" 100 pound subs from JTR but that would be my preferred configuration (4 of them portable)
In summation, 27.5Hz for music, 31.5Hz for PA/club and 16 to 18Hz for HT. I really don't see deep bass going away as more new music arrives from Youtube from around the world. The record companies chopping the deep bass is fading away as the cost/complexity of recording plummeted by using software. I prefer my music system to reproduce whatever music is around now and in the future. After all, with so much music being created on a computer--no worries about microphone induced mess with bass. Some of the creations on Soundcloud get my HT subs working--25Hz is the new 50Hz might of underestimated it by 2/3rds of an octave but close enough!
Be careful with your drywall...
Back 25 years ago--in my DJ days, my system had an F3 of 40Hz and it worked OK. Throwing some of the dance/techno/rap of the time in with my 40Hz high pass disabled would cause some severe overdrive of the six 15" woofers I used at the time. Since I didn't want to turn my 15's into rice hats, I'd listen to the new music at lower levels and noted that 40Hz would not reproduce the music from the early 90's full bandwidth. Not a big issue because at the time a solid 40Hz did the trick. Sure, I wanted to get 30Hz but my back and vehicle could not handle the weight/size required while keeping required power reasonable to not blow breakers.
Listened to Enya Sheppard Moons on a HT system (25Hz F3) and headphones and there was some deep stuff and I recall it was 24Hz? These days I don't do the DJ thing anymore but have an HT system that does 18Hz in room. Out in my garage, I DIY'd a pair of push-pull slot loaded subs tuned to 24Hz. The subs are flat to the high 20's then roll off with usable response down to the low 20's thanks to garage gain and so on.
My sons tend to like bass heavy music, some of it has been modified to go very deep. To teach them about bass response is rather simple, I tape a piece of paper to hang down in front of the PPSL slot (very active over 32Hz with another piece of paper placed in front of the 24Hz tuned port. Most music from the 60's to the mid 80's won't move the paper in front of the port with heavy flapping in front of the slot taking center stage. However, they throw in some KLF etc. and the port starts to move air. They grab some of my remixes from the mid 90's and it is obvious deeper bass is creeping in. Fast forward to this century and those poor PPSLs are pushing some air through the port.
Read an article at ProSoundWeb a few years back that addressed how club and band music keeps dropping down in frequency as technology allows it's use. It was called 25Hz is the new 50Hz and basically pointed out you need 25Hz response at around -6dB if you amplify modern dance music. Most bass guitars are drop tuned to 31.5Hz or lower and a piano has a 27.5Hz low note so it makes sense.
I'll throw in my two cents and state at the minimum you should have high powered music only subs go down to 27.5Hz (preferred) or 31.5Hz minimum if the lower tuning is impossible to move/amplify etc. If your gig is a country band or oldies, you can get away with 40Hz tuning but it better have a strong high pass to protect the system from the latest song on the phone trick. One must also remember that history supports the frequency required going down and unless you replace the subs every year--you have to look forward to estimate the demands in the long run.
For HT use, the 1990 THX standard had it pegged at 20Hz -6dB and that works. The IMAX standard is 20Hz -3dB and I looked at Interstellar charts to figure out the worm hole scene. Max output at 22Hz but still strong output down to 18Hz and my poor HT sub reproduced the 18Hz with some strain. Yes, building two more subs that will do 16Hz usable in the room. I would love to have 7Hz performance to do Blackhawk Down (1998) and Edge of Tomorrow but my house can't handle that--if the OCD kicks in I'll get some bass shakers to massage the couch and not break windows or crack drywall.
My "validation" is the low note on a piano or 27.5Hz as a "music" sub. Since the system is for music, it should produce 99.9% of all music (8Hz pipe organs is up to you!) Once you start throwing away classical music, EDM, rap, modern rock and so on...call it what it is, classic rock or "analog" music reproduction. If you limit yourself to guitar/drums/bass guitar music then going higher is fine. Since people now carry their music collections in their pocket, it is best for me as a music system to at least try to get down into the high 20's frequency range. My sons hooked up some of that decaf stuff and that 24Hz port was pumping serious air and I was thankful for my 21Hz high pass filter.
The downsides of subs or mains going down to 27.5Hz are many, if you do PA/club music it can be very expensive and back breaking to get there...try for 31.5Hz although you might have to build your own subs. The 18" sub boxes don't really go much lower than they did 20 years ago due to cost, size and weight--I understand fully! When I looked into getting 30 to 32Hz response in the 90's, there were subs available but more for actual theaters and club installs instead of transportable. This is changing though, I've noticed some manufacturers are getting down to close to 30Hz or lower at a smaller size. Physics being what it is, the efficiency drops a bit but that can be made up with by having more subs. My back hurts thinking about moving eight 18" 100 pound subs from JTR but that would be my preferred configuration (4 of them portable)
In summation, 27.5Hz for music, 31.5Hz for PA/club and 16 to 18Hz for HT. I really don't see deep bass going away as more new music arrives from Youtube from around the world. The record companies chopping the deep bass is fading away as the cost/complexity of recording plummeted by using software. I prefer my music system to reproduce whatever music is around now and in the future. After all, with so much music being created on a computer--no worries about microphone induced mess with bass. Some of the creations on Soundcloud get my HT subs working--25Hz is the new 50Hz might of underestimated it by 2/3rds of an octave but close enough!
Be careful with your drywall...
Sorry, but having 12 or 100 18" subs or a car stereo that will rattle the windows does not mean that music has much content below 30Hz. Now you may be able to play below 20-30Hz, and you might be able to EQ up the octave below 40Hz so that you hear what is down there - but the real levels below about 40Hz on the vast majority of recordings is minimal.
People are still confusing what's actually in the recording with the way they like to play it. And (I think) still confusing bass amplitude with frequency. Remember the original question "Realistically, how low is bass in music?" What's the first word in that sentence?
FWIW, for a couple of years I has a system and room that would play flat down to about 22Hz. The room (a lava cave) was very acoustically clean. Room modes just were not the problem they are in most listening rooms. The advantage of going down that low, without boost, was mostly heard on classical recordings where it gave a good sense of the recording hall. It was easy enough to put in a high pass filter and hear the difference and the difference was rarely musical, but was always ambient. And it's a welcome part of the playback.
People are still confusing what's actually in the recording with the way they like to play it. And (I think) still confusing bass amplitude with frequency. Remember the original question "Realistically, how low is bass in music?" What's the first word in that sentence?
FWIW, for a couple of years I has a system and room that would play flat down to about 22Hz. The room (a lava cave) was very acoustically clean. Room modes just were not the problem they are in most listening rooms. The advantage of going down that low, without boost, was mostly heard on classical recordings where it gave a good sense of the recording hall. It was easy enough to put in a high pass filter and hear the difference and the difference was rarely musical, but was always ambient. And it's a welcome part of the playback.
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