"Enhanced" Anarchy tapped horn project.

[aceinc]

I compared it to a large vented system in this thread, FYI:
Exodous Anarchy... - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum

I'd be very curious to hear both in an A/B listening session.

Am I reading the sim correctly? It appears to me that you are getting the same/similar results from a 1 cu ft ported box as from the much larger TH.

I noticed the discussion turned to distortion, was any consensus reached as to TH vs Ported as far as distortion is concerned?

 

[GM]

Hmm, simmed is ~82 dB mid-band eff. Vs the TH's measured ~87 dB due to larger net Vb.

Basically, a TTL/TH allows using a larger cab with a much larger [more acoustically efficient/greater driver damping with increasing power] vent area [Av] plus adds a bit of HF directivity/'throw', so for high power/SPL apps will require more reflex cabs to match it, which will be more expensive in both cost and space, especially once the horn's increased mouth coupling efficiency/pattern control is factored in.

GM

 

[PB2]

What I was trying to show is that a vented system is just a lumped equivalent of what is
now being called a tapped horn. A tapped horn is a TL that is trying to behave more like
a normal vented system - in my view. So why not just build a normal vented system.
What the tapped horn allows is a much larger "box" but if you build a vented system as a
much larger box you get similar results. The TH uses much of the box volume for the long
line so they usually end up even larger than the vented design.
I believe that we came to the conclusion that the TH might be a few dB more efficient but
I doubt it. The other thing is that the vented box has a sag above Fb and perhaps the TH
line could be used to fix that but again - not sure.

@GM I'm not convinced that the conditions are the same, many people using hornresp sim
into 1pi loading rather than 2pi. It would be interesting to compare.
I have 4 ohm Anarchy and would be willing to build the vented design if anyone nearby has
the TH version to compare.

 

[Brian Steele]

I believe that we came to the conclusion that the TH might be a few dB more efficient but
I doubt it. The other thing is that the vented box has a sag above Fb and perhaps the TH
line could be used to fix that but again - .

THs like BP6 designs are very flexible wrt efficiency and extension, but yes, you can design them to have a flatter pass band and greater efficiency than a vented box with the same Fb, with the added advantage of much less port compression effects. Delta change in GD is also likely to be less over the passband.

That said, the Anarchy TH isn't a great example of a TH IMO. I would have rejected this build outright because of those 10+dB out of band peaks so close to the passband. Hi efficiency pro audio drivers are a better match for TH alignments. For the Anarchy, I would look at offset MLTLs instead.

 

[GM]

@GM I'm not convinced that the conditions are the same, many people using hornresp sim
into 1pi loading rather than 2pi. It would be interesting to compare.

It sims ~91.9 dB mid-band/1pi.

Yeah, I'd like to see a real world comparison too. The closest I've come to a BR/TH comparison was a Lab 12 BR Vs DSL's DTS-20 and even then not together or under the same conditions, but what I could tell was that the BR's distortion severely limited peak SPL re the TH by more than I could take before plugging my ears, so made me an instant convert.

In retrospect, it wasn't surprising once I realized it's basically a 6th order BP.

GM

 

[Dave R]

That said, the Anarchy TH isn't a great example of a TH IMO. I would have rejected this build outright because of those 10+dB out of band peaks so close to the passband.

Yes, I have since seen several TH combinations that were much better behaved than this, and which would integrate into a system much easier.

Besides the relatively flat pass band in the area that I wanted to utilize, what drove me to make my pair work was that the size is really ideal for my situation. A slim footprint of about 8-1/2", wide enough for the bookshelf 2-ways on top, placing the tweeter 41" off the floor (close to ear height in my favorite chair).

The extra cost of the minidsp, and perhaps the performance as compared to other combinations may not appeal to many. In my case I made it work, and I'm very satisfied with how well they integrated into the system.

 

[Brian Steele]

The extra cost of the minidsp, and perhaps the performance as compared to other combinations may not appeal to many. In my case I made it work, and I'm very satisfied with how well they integrated into the system.

How did you correct for the delay caused by the TH's path length?

 

[Dave R]

In addition to adjustable gain and crossover frequency, the plate amp has continuously variable phase (not just 0 or 180). Took some trial and error to get it to blend in and sound right. (add the cost of a pair of these as well)

Yung SD200-6 200W Class D Subwoofer Plate Amplifier Module with 6 dB at 35 Hz

 

[Dave R]

Yung SD200-6 200W Class D Subwoofer Plate Amplifier Module with 6 dB at 35 Hz

oops. I linked to the wrong one. Mine does not have the 6 dB boost.

Yung SD200 200W Class D Subwoofer Plate Amplifier Module No Boost

 

[Dave R]

aceinc,

I didn't intend on hi-jacking or side-tracking this thread. Admittedly, the Anarchy TH took a lot of effort to make work, as I found out.

Here is a thread where others suggest what to look for in driver T/S parameters that usually work well in a TH.
Tapped horn drivers - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

Based on those guidelines, here are a few 6 to 7 inch driver possibilities to run hornresp simulations on:

Dayton PM180-8
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-343-Dayton-Audio-PM180-8-Specifications.pdf

B&C 6NDL44
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-647-bc-speakers-6ndl44-specifications-46950.pdf

FaitalPro M6N8-150
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/299-197-faitalpro-m6n8-150-specifications.pdf

Dayton LW150-4
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-255--dayton-audio-lw150-4-spec-sheet.pdf

Fostex FW168HS
http://madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/Fostex_woofer_FW168HS.pdf

Maybe one or more of these might fit your constraints/goals.

 

[Brian Steele]

What the tapped horn allows is a much larger "box" but if you build a vented system as a much larger box you get similar results. The TH uses much of the box volume for the long line so they usually end up even larger than the vented design. I believe that we came to the conclusion that the TH might be a few dB more efficient but I doubt it.

FWIW, I took the HornResp sim for my POC3 TH (which was designed for a combination of increased efficiency and extension) and converted the sim to an offset TL of the same volume (basically by changing the sim from TH to OD, then increasing L12 until the passband was flattened.

The results were interesting. See notes below

TH:
Fb=38.36 Hz, max SPL@Fb=111.3dB
Eg for max linear displacement=22V
Passband SPL: 116.4dB@105.9Hz, 115.7dB@72.0Hz,116.0dB@51.1Hz.
Useful up to 135 Hz
GD peaks @43Hz, 16.9mS, minimum@83Hz, 5.2mS, delta=7.9mS

Offset TL:
Fb=38.91 Hz, SPL=112.4dB
Eg for max linear displacement=23V
Passband SPL: 114dB@51.1Hz, 114.2dB@72.0Hz, 115.5dB@105.9Hz
GD peaks @37.2Hz, 19.5mS, 15.14mS@43Hz, minimum @86.7Hz, 2.8mS, delta=2.1mS

From this the TH can produce about 2dB more SPL across the passband (at the cost of a slightly faster rolloff) with slightly less power required to drive it, and the GD performance is better, even more so once the delta is taken into consideration. The additional SPL with good extension was one of the advantages I was aiming for. But here it's just 2dB, and the TH alignment does restrict the bandwidth more than a TL alignment of the same net volume. The GD seems quite a bit better though.

Pictured is the simmed response curve of the offset-TL.

 

[luvdunhill]

I too would like to “refold” this project and was wondering if someone might be able to help me accomplish this. I would like to move the enclosure into a pentagon so I can put it under my TP1 speakers. What would I need to understand to take on this type of modification?

 

[KaffiMann]

I have been thinking for some years that it would be fun to build a scoop bin with sealed chamber, like a proper horn. Have some W6-1139 SI laying about.

Either that or make a small portable system with them. Really want to do something fun with them, fun is what they are all about, built like silly toys, not interesting compared to a reasonably priced 12" imo.

 

[luvdunhill]

I have been thinking for some years that it would be fun to build a scoop bin with sealed chamber, like a proper horn. Have some W6-1139 SI laying about.

Either that or make a small portable system with them. Really want to do something fun with them, fun is what they are all about, built like silly toys, not interesting compared to a reasonably priced 12" imo.

Aesthetically a scoop bin would really match my TP1s! If you want to put pen to paper, I would build it. I can give you the basic dimensions and the W6-1139 would be a great driver to use.

 

[KaffiMann]

I really want to make a scoop bin for my two W6-1139SI too, but I am a complete noob to calculating that type of enclosure, have not gone that route "yet".
Maybe we could make it an collaborative effort?

What are the size constraints you have?

 

[luvdunhill]

I really want to make a scoop bin for my two W6-1139SI too, but I am a complete noob to calculating that type of enclosure, have not gone that route "yet".
Maybe we could make it an collaborative effort?

What are the size constraints you have?

I would like them to have the same outline as this diagram (dimensions in mm) and just enough height for the W6 or similar driver(s).

This will jack up my top horns but I think they will still sound find off (that) axis or I can raise up my seating position a bit too.

 

[KaffiMann]

So you want a horn that is basically as high as the minimum amount of room required for a 6" woofer + materials. It may be difficult to get an effective design with that base layout to begin with. As you probably well know (looking at the speakers you have), horns for bass take up some space.

Not saying it can't be done, just saying it may be a bit unrealistic.

Edit:
Did some rough "back of the envelope" numbers and an estimate of how the fold might be ok. It's a start, but needs some work.

 

[chris661]

For what it's worth, I'd just do something like an ML-TL for the W6-1139, but make the port expand quickly so it just looks like a scoop. The driver really wants small enclosures tuned pretty low, so putting it into anything bigger will cause headaches - even the Anarchy tapped horn isn't particularly flat when you include semi-inductance modelling.

Chris

 

[KaffiMann]

I know.
Like mentioned previously, it's like a silly toy. Built for fun, not precision.

Edit:
My favourite part of this driver, is watching it work. It just pumps like crazy. Better put it in a box where you get to look at the action.
A whole lot of action for a little bit of sound.

Edit2:
This is what I have been seriously considering for a long time, another of my "k56" kind of things, just under 35 liters total, sim is with a 37hz 4th order bw high pass.

 

[luvdunhill]

Did some rough "back of the envelope" numbers and an estimate of how the fold might be ok. It's a start, but needs some work.

In comparison, what about a W-Bin? I could do a mini version of this with one driver and adopt the same five-sided shape as above:

W-Bin 2x15

I would be curious what the hornresp output looks like with the original Anarchy Tapped Horn, which is probably buried somewhere - that would be a perfect goal response for the project, as they sound really good. This is just about optimizing the look