Is it real? Should we target something different regarding that hard-to-reach first octave (and below) with music-oriented-system and movie-oriented-system (HT) ?
In a perfect world, i'd say no.
Any true Hi-Fi system should be able to reproduce with fidelity any sound, including the explosion of a planet (!) even though sound waves are not travelling through space and even though our neighbors are not always enjoying infrabass as we might do...
But, it's not a perfect world, is it...
So, what about -3 db (F3) @ 25hz for music and F3 @ 15hz for movies, can we settle for that once and for all ?
After many years of careful observations, i think there is some very important music content starting from about 27-28hz. Missing that would be a shame. In fact, most of the older recordings are in fact lacking of the first octave in general. They need a boost in that region. I'm a big fan of EQ boosting around 30hz (high Q, though) to get more ''meat'' around the bones of most recordings, especially the very thin and anorexic stuff from the 80's (darn CD re-mastering of this era....)
Anyway... What do you think?
Should we be more ambitious, regarding music oriented system? F3 @ 20hz or even less ?
Or, on the contrary, you can deal with less of that first octave and be very happy with it ?
In a perfect world, i'd say no.
Any true Hi-Fi system should be able to reproduce with fidelity any sound, including the explosion of a planet (!) even though sound waves are not travelling through space and even though our neighbors are not always enjoying infrabass as we might do...
But, it's not a perfect world, is it...
So, what about -3 db (F3) @ 25hz for music and F3 @ 15hz for movies, can we settle for that once and for all ?
After many years of careful observations, i think there is some very important music content starting from about 27-28hz. Missing that would be a shame. In fact, most of the older recordings are in fact lacking of the first octave in general. They need a boost in that region. I'm a big fan of EQ boosting around 30hz (high Q, though) to get more ''meat'' around the bones of most recordings, especially the very thin and anorexic stuff from the 80's (darn CD re-mastering of this era....)
Anyway... What do you think?
Should we be more ambitious, regarding music oriented system? F3 @ 20hz or even less ?
Or, on the contrary, you can deal with less of that first octave and be very happy with it ?
The subwoofer for my main system (which I use for both movies and music) can reproduce all the way down to 20 Hz without difficulty. Both movies and music sound fine .
Seriously though, music on a system capable of reaching 20 Hz will likely sound different than that on a system that's capable of reaching down to say only 40 Hz. And did the producer of said music engineer it to sound good on a 20 Hz capable system, or on a 40 Hz capable system? If the latter, which system would be a more accurate reproducer of what the producer intended?
I don't worry too much about it. I prefer to spend the time worrying about such stuff enjoying the music instead.
. Seriously though, music on a system capable of reaching 20 Hz will likely sound different than that on a system that's capable of reaching down to say only 40 Hz. And did the producer of said music engineer it to sound good on a 20 Hz capable system, or on a 40 Hz capable system? If the latter, which system would be a more accurate reproducer of what the producer intended?
I don't worry too much about it. I prefer to spend the time worrying about such stuff enjoying the music instead
.What do you mean "first octave"? Technically the first octave is 0 hz to a frequency infinitesimally higher than 0 hz.
On other forums this is the kind of response people are shooting for. This is a ported system -
And this is a sealed system -
And those are just two random examples from a thread I'm currently active in - I could show plenty of systems that go a lot lower than that but I don't feel like searching them out. It's not even difficult to get that type of response.
For music I could be happy with a system flat to about 27 hz, for movies, I don't mind watching them on tv speakers but someday I'd like response down to around 6 hz or so.
EDIT - I currently get nice response down to about 23 hz with my tapped horn with a single 6.5 inch driver. Low isn't hard, I plan to upgrade to multiple 18s (at least 2, maybe more) soon.
On other forums this is the kind of response people are shooting for. This is a ported system -
And this is a sealed system -
And those are just two random examples from a thread I'm currently active in - I could show plenty of systems that go a lot lower than that but I don't feel like searching them out. It's not even difficult to get that type of response.
For music I could be happy with a system flat to about 27 hz, for movies, I don't mind watching them on tv speakers but someday I'd like response down to around 6 hz or so.
EDIT - I currently get nice response down to about 23 hz with my tapped horn with a single 6.5 inch driver. Low isn't hard, I plan to upgrade to multiple 18s (at least 2, maybe more) soon.
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Just a guy: by convention i think it's more about the frequencies the human species can hear: 20hz to 20khz
Which means the first octave would be 20-40hz and the last (10th) would be 10,000-20,000hz.
Of course, infrabass can be ''felt'' and some people can hear above 20khz (23-25khz ?) but i think most people are having earing capacities within the usual 20hz-20khz.
1st octave = 20-40hz
2nd octave = 40-80hz
3rd octave = 80-160hz
4th octave = 160-360hz
5th octave = 360-720hz
6th octave = 720-1440hz
7th octave = 1440-2880hz
8th octave = 2880-5760hz
9th octave = 5760-11,520hz
10th octave = 11,520-23,040hz (or 20hz even. or we start the 1st at 18hz? hehehe)
Which means the first octave would be 20-40hz and the last (10th) would be 10,000-20,000hz.
Of course, infrabass can be ''felt'' and some people can hear above 20khz (23-25khz ?) but i think most people are having earing capacities within the usual 20hz-20khz.
1st octave = 20-40hz
2nd octave = 40-80hz
3rd octave = 80-160hz
4th octave = 160-360hz
5th octave = 360-720hz
6th octave = 720-1440hz
7th octave = 1440-2880hz
8th octave = 2880-5760hz
9th octave = 5760-11,520hz
10th octave = 11,520-23,040hz (or 20hz even. or we start the 1st at 18hz? hehehe)
Pano, the real problem for me is that i don't trust sound pros whose tools consists of 2-way Yamaha speakers... Or headphones for that matter.
Few DID pay attention to the 1st and 10th octave, but most didnt care about those extremes, therefore it's badly represented in recordings (pre-1990 music and probably pre-2000 movies): lack of 20-30hz material and lack or too much highs... Pure analog sound takes and mixing didnt help the case, of course. That changed a lot in recent years but now we have another problem: dynamic compression which is ridiculously high nowadays, but's that another topic...
i'm saying pre-2000 movies, but in fact i might be wrong. Hans Zimmer, by example, is a fan of low frequencies and probably infra too, as i can see, hear, feel in some of his work.
Few DID pay attention to the 1st and 10th octave, but most didnt care about those extremes, therefore it's badly represented in recordings (pre-1990 music and probably pre-2000 movies): lack of 20-30hz material and lack or too much highs... Pure analog sound takes and mixing didnt help the case, of course. That changed a lot in recent years but now we have another problem: dynamic compression which is ridiculously high nowadays, but's that another topic...
i'm saying pre-2000 movies, but in fact i might be wrong. Hans Zimmer, by example, is a fan of low frequencies and probably infra too, as i can see, hear, feel in some of his work.
Don't forget that the end result also has to be capable of playback in the target audience's systems.
I'm going to guess that the owner of the average home system that has no capable subwoofer is not going to be impressed by music that includes 0dB 20 Hz pulses for example, unless he looking forward to the woofer cones embedding themselves in the speaker grilles when he turns the volume up...
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Yes i know that too well, Brian. That's unfortunate and expected at the same time.
Dynamic compression exists for that very reason, only it ''resolves'' the problem of 5-octaves-systems such as the ones in cell phones, tablets, laptops and pre-2000 Hyundai vehicles.
wow, 6hz really??
Sorry for asking but is there a lot of (movie) content @ 6hz?
...and more important: what a human can sense exactly at 6hz? Never heard such low frequency at moderate-high SPL, i honestly have no clue!
Yeah really. Here's a post copied and pasted from data-bass.com forum. This is a frequency spectrum plot vs time of the club scene in John Wick. As you can see, there's extremely strong content down to about 3 hz.
I took the 2 screen caps from the club scene and combined them onto one graph. You're right, Aj, this scene is over 3 minutes of full bandwidth transients. I'll also reiterate my previous observation about the background drone of every even numbered frequency from 4 Hz through 114 Hz... awesome stuff. I enjoyed it. Actually, the sound elevated the movie from ho-hum to excellent, IMO.
How many movies have low content these days? Here's just a few lists, unfortunately photobucket has eaten many of the images but some are still accessible.
The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
The Ultimate List of BASS in Movies w/ Frequency Charts - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
The Low Frequency Content Thread (films, games, music, etc) - Bass Content - Data-Bass Forums
Yeah, there's hundreds of movies on these lists, if not thousands. And there's many more lists like this if you search.
You can't hear 3 hz, obviously, but you can sure feel it. Just like an earthquake. If there's an earthquake in a movie you should be able to feel an earthquake on the soundtrack. Makes sense, no?
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Sorry, but no. Some of the most coveted bass scenes are in very popular movies, The Hulk, How to Train Your Dragon, Edge of Tomorrow for example.
EOT in particular has some completely useless bass tones that are at or near reference volume playing right in or after the opening credits. It's a series of 3 or 4 tones starting at 10 hz and going upwards. It has no correlation to anything going on in the movie, it's just there. There's warnings about this all over the internet. If you are not careful you will fry your subs.
BUT on a tv, the speakers will just flop around without making any sound, you would never even know it was there.
One of the new Star Trek movies has very strong 5 hz tones. F'in Irene helicopter scene is famous worldwide for low tones. But if you don't have a sub you would never even realize there's any bass at all.
What made me start that thread is because i was spoiled for many years (and still is) with a good main system at home (music and movie) that covers well all audible frequencies, including the 20-30hz region.
Now i'm working on few modest projects and it appears that no technology advancement made it easier or cheaper to get some decent SPL below 30hz without sacrificing budget and,or cabinet volume. And most of the time it's both.
Seems that there is absolutely no way around it. No EQ boost nor amplifier power can really get you 20-25hz @ a somewhat moderate in-room SPL (95-100db?) if you don't have volume. Maybe modern drivers, flat subwoofers, ultra-xmax, etc.. will help a bit, but not that much. Above 35hz? No problem. In PA territory, 40hz and up? A walk in the park. But then, you're missing much. I believe.
Seems like every 1hz lower in that region is twice difficult than the last 1hz you try to grab... Power consumption jumps, mechanical limits of the drivers are tested exponentially, everything is under massive stress. And i'm not even talking about distortion and other audible artifacts...
The question, now, at least to me: what would be the optimum balance between ''compact'' speakers and decent low frequency response in regards to actual perception we have on those low frequencies ?
I already know that fullrangers and OB aficionados pretty much dismissed the entire 1st octave of their lives and sometimes even the 2nd (!) but i think it as anti Hi-Fi as dimissing the last octave (no tweeter) and maybe even worst since at least some (older) people just can't hear anything higher than 12-15khz... Low-bass can be heard at any age, last time i checked...
But, yeah, i really wonder. 25hz F3, 27hz, 30hz ? Doesnt seem like much difference but take few minutes to listen at pure tones at exactly those frequencies (if you have a system that can reproduce it!!), you'll see how different they sound. 22hz is a world apart 35hz.
Now i'm working on few modest projects and it appears that no technology advancement made it easier or cheaper to get some decent SPL below 30hz without sacrificing budget and,or cabinet volume. And most of the time it's both.
Seems that there is absolutely no way around it. No EQ boost nor amplifier power can really get you 20-25hz @ a somewhat moderate in-room SPL (95-100db?) if you don't have volume. Maybe modern drivers, flat subwoofers, ultra-xmax, etc.. will help a bit, but not that much. Above 35hz? No problem. In PA territory, 40hz and up? A walk in the park. But then, you're missing much. I believe.
Seems like every 1hz lower in that region is twice difficult than the last 1hz you try to grab... Power consumption jumps, mechanical limits of the drivers are tested exponentially, everything is under massive stress. And i'm not even talking about distortion and other audible artifacts...
The question, now, at least to me: what would be the optimum balance between ''compact'' speakers and decent low frequency response in regards to actual perception we have on those low frequencies ?
I already know that fullrangers and OB aficionados pretty much dismissed the entire 1st octave of their lives and sometimes even the 2nd (!) but i think it as anti Hi-Fi as dimissing the last octave (no tweeter) and maybe even worst since at least some (older) people just can't hear anything higher than 12-15khz... Low-bass can be heard at any age, last time i checked...
But, yeah, i really wonder. 25hz F3, 27hz, 30hz ? Doesnt seem like much difference but take few minutes to listen at pure tones at exactly those frequencies (if you have a system that can reproduce it!!), you'll see how different they sound. 22hz is a world apart 35hz.
There's even music with single digit tones. There's not a lot but it's out there and more is created all the time as there is real demand for this type of stuff from people who can reproduce it.
Ever heard of Bass I Love You? Yeah, 7 hz.
Ever heard of Bass I Love You? Yeah, 7 hz.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Why are you still saying "first octave"? On other forums people would laugh at a system that only goes down to 20 hz.
Remember that graph of the ported system I showed that goes down to 8 hz? I'm pretty sure he can hit 140 db at the listening position at single digit frequencies. He's got 8 or maybe a dozen 18s and his room is in a basement, kinda like a concrete bunker.
It isn't hard or expensive to get loud low frequencies. In a room with a lot of room gain, put a few 18s in IB and you don't even need any eq to get flat to single digits. The amp power required to run drivers in an IB is very low, an Inuke 6000 would go a long way. And drivers are not expensive either if you choose the budget ones. Here's an 18 for $160 with 23 mm claimed xmax.
HT-18 v2 18″ Subwoofer | Stereo Integrity
You seem to be extremely out of touch with modern systems, equipment and user goals.
It's really not that impressive. Especially for the price. It only does 115 db, and that's in room (room gain included). For the same price you could get about fifty 18s and about 50 kw of amp burst power and blow the rotary sub right out the back wall.
There's even music with single digit tones. There's not a lot but it's out there and more is created all the time as there is real demand for this type of stuff from people who can reproduce it.
Ever heard of Bass I Love You? Yeah, 7 hz.
I know for a fact that i have a lot of music that has content below 20hz (that i probably miss...), mostly experimental electronic music, IDM, Glitch techno, etc... Artists such COH, Pan sonic, Roly Porter, Alva Noto, Andy Stott, Mica Levi, Pete Namlook, Frank Bretschneider... just to name a few.
But do i really miss something ? Even if the content is there, i'll feel it like ''oh my god, all those years without that content!'' OR ''oh. yeah, cool. Not bad, yeah i notice it a little...'' kind of thing?
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