USRFobiwan,
The wideband Paraflex model with the DS115 that i was describing in #519 has an operating range from around 34hz to 170hz as it is set up in my Hornresp right now, but that range can be shifted upward if someone really wanted to .........
There just isn't as much demand for such a thing when most people are crossing over to their tops in the 80hz to 100hz range .... Extending the bandwidth up that high (while keeping Fb the same) means sacrificing some efficiency in the 60hz-100hz range and that loss is just pointless if we don't plan on using that bandwidth above 100hz ... ..... So for the most part i will be sticking with the Paraflex style that focuses it's energy below 100hz....
However, speaking of actual kickbins, i have a story.... Recently (for a lesser 18" driver) I did design a kickbin with 60hz Fb using the non-merged path Super Planar 8th split path layout ...... The guy that i designed it for never did build the thing but the model showed an astounding amount of efficiency and output so it is worth mentioning.............. This was with a mediocre RCF driver, low cost .... A high-end B&C driver isn't necessary in this 60hz tuned application unless your output goals are truly at the extreme end of extreme
................ The 60hz Super Planar 8th kickbin looks to be an exceptional performer (in Hornresp) using common drivers, if anyone is interested in building some i will gladly post the Hornresp inputs and we can translate them into a cabinet, no problem.... Looks like it would be great as part of a 4-way or 5-way system ..
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It's possible to shift the range of Paraflex between 25-100 Hz with a not enormous cabinet ?
Yes
Freddi ,
Right , in simulations the Super Planar 8th tuned up high has no problem competing with (or exceeding) kickbins based on FLH design or 6th order series tuned bandpass like the Cubo-kick (with fair comparisons using same suitable drivers and same fundamental tuning) ..
Going from a 12" to a 15" would only require scaling in one dimension as long as there is enough room on the baffle for the driver , and if not the driver's baffle size would need to be increased in two dimensions .. .
Freddi ,
Right , in simulations the Super Planar 8th tuned up high has no problem competing with (or exceeding) kickbins based on FLH design or 6th order series tuned bandpass like the Cubo-kick (with fair comparisons using same suitable drivers and same fundamental tuning) ..
Going from a 12" to a 15" would only require scaling in one dimension as long as there is enough room on the baffle for the driver , and if not the driver's baffle size would need to be increased in two dimensions .. .
Would be great as a DJ monitor
USRFobiwan ,
One of these cabinets (tuned high, and perhaps using a 12 as the woof) would make a magnificent DJ monitor!
Take a look at the dual 12 tops in post#1 ... We just used the simplest of passive crossovers on the midrange and HF compression drivers and we didn't use any DSP to compensate for the small amount of delay .... .Even though the drivers were recessed deep into the box the CDs were also recessed due to the length of their horns, so everything worked out well in the end ...... He said they were some of the best sounding speakers he has ever heard , and he is a Hi-Fi nut !!
USRFobiwan , since you are not opposed to using larger compression drivers there would be no need to go 3-way with the top cabinet like he did .... You could use the N314T-8 and cross over down as low as 800hz for a 2-way setup ...
USRFobiwan ,
One of these cabinets (tuned high, and perhaps using a 12 as the woof) would make a magnificent DJ monitor!
Take a look at the dual 12 tops in post#1 ... We just used the simplest of passive crossovers on the midrange and HF compression drivers and we didn't use any DSP to compensate for the small amount of delay .... .Even though the drivers were recessed deep into the box the CDs were also recessed due to the length of their horns, so everything worked out well in the end ...... He said they were some of the best sounding speakers he has ever heard , and he is a Hi-Fi nut !!
USRFobiwan , since you are not opposed to using larger compression drivers there would be no need to go 3-way with the top cabinet like he did .... You could use the N314T-8 and cross over down as low as 800hz for a 2-way setup ...
Luca,
25hz tuning on the bottom end is overly ambitious with these high-order boxes, especially for a small driver ..... 30hz to 35hz is more reasonable (although Dustin did tune his Paraflex 12 just a bit below 30hz, but that is for usage in a car which is a different transfer function than your living room) ......
Luca , do you have access to buying the ESX 10" driver that USRFobiwan posted about recently? I modeled it based upon it's published parameters it does look like a good candidate ... ....
I Recently found out that the Kicker Comp VX 10 may also be a strong candidate for a small Paraflex and should be easy enough to find for anyone living in Western Europe or the Americas ..
UPDATE on Dustin's Paraflex build
Dustin Morgan of Flex Tech Designs recently built a Paraflex style Super Planar loaded with a SoundStream T5 Trantula 12" subwoofer driver ..... I posted his build pics at #504 .... After he finished building it he realized that there were some leaks (the entire side panel is just sealed with Camper Seal and screws.... Lots of opportunities for leaks... Not a permanent solution ideally but should hold up long enough for testing purposes)...
After fixing the leaks he reported the following to me:
Dustin Morgan of Flex Tech Designs recently built a Paraflex style Super Planar loaded with a SoundStream T5 Trantula 12" subwoofer driver ..... I posted his build pics at #504 .... After he finished building it he realized that there were some leaks (the entire side panel is just sealed with Camper Seal and screws.... Lots of opportunities for leaks... Not a permanent solution ideally but should hold up long enough for testing purposes)...
After fixing the leaks he reported the following to me:
- Confirmed: Air leaks were hurting me bad.
- Cabinet is Very Serious, it's in the 142-143db range I estimate Now.
- It's peaking by ear in the high 30hz's range.
- The system is now louder than both of my Soundstream R3 15"s that took up the whole trunk. With almost all variables equal. Louder at a lower frequency, AND both cabinets were about the same Tuning!
- I see what it's about now and it's really real. I respect these alignments.
- My friend who owns the VVX TPQWR was the first to hear it today after the air leaks were addressed better.
- Lots of "damn"s and eyebrow rising...
- My Lows are FAR louder than his setup... And they wreck my vehicle...
- That's my Tarantula T5 12" Paraflex by the way for clarification
- Now a lot of this is enclosure dependent, because when I had my Ported enclosure with the 2 Soundstream r3 15"s in it, I was peaking at 50hz! And the enclosure was "tuned" to 30hz as well...
Interesting to note that he is comparing the Paraflex 12 to his old cabinet which has dual 15" woofers in it , and he says the Paraflex is noticeably stronger!!!
The TPQWR that he mentioned (was one that he built) contains a single beefy 15" driver, his friend uses it now . . He has tried all of these different cabinets in the trunk of his Saturn ..
You could say that these reports are subjective and anecdotal but in defense of his statements i would like to point out that he is technically savvy with a good ear and a brilliant engineering mind (he became a highly skilled Hornresp power-user almost literally overnight!! Not many of us can honestly say that!) so his feedback does hold some weight if you ask me ..
He is working on getting some equipment together for measuring impedance and response curves.
This Paraflex style Super Planar design is showing some promise ... We should next try it with a PA driver
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USRFobiwan,
This is for the Super Planar tops with dual 10" Beyma drivers i see ....
Ok , definitely looks like you have far more driver-offset than i would use .. . If the two drivers are "spanned" along the path (sharing the same path) like the tops in post#1 then you could go with something like 27cm worth of driver-offset ...... If you are going with a split-path symmetrical sort of layout then you could go with even less, perhaps around 14cm ...
A cabinet tuning in the range of 70hz to 80hz should be good with those 10s ..
Must be doing something wrong in my sim.
S1-S4 should say 554, 420, 410, or 392. You have 554, 420, and 410 on the main input screen, yet 392 in Loudspeaker Wizard.
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USRFobiwan,
Which post was that from? Was it from a dual Delta 10a sim? If there is a discrepancy in the screenshots then it is possible that i made minor adjustments to the model between screenshots ... The amount of effective CSA at S2 is only roughly estimated in these designs where there is a panel directly behind the driver .............. You can also see how the CSA of S1 can be greater than S2 due to the shape of the baffle, as shown in the tops from post #1 , this little hiccup in the expansion profile doesn't seem to hurt anything ....
re:10G40 - what makes lossyL most appropriate for its coil? (I have 10G200 Qts 0.26/mms 44g/1mH coil)
here's an inappropriate 10 (xmax wise) in the 132L SP - good low end for low qts (close to 108dB/1pi 1 watt)
https://i.imgur.com/3AYWzX5.jpg
here's an inappropriate 10 (xmax wise) in the 132L SP - good low end for low qts (close to 108dB/1pi 1 watt)
https://i.imgur.com/3AYWzX5.jpg
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Freddi ,
The "Lossy Le" just dials down the BL based upon the ratio of Le to Re .... It helps us create a more accurate model ..... Just A Guy explains it well .. .
Note on upper extension and dispersion, and influence on response being nestled deep
Guys ,
Also be sure to keep this in mind when modeling Super Planar tops in Hornresp:
The midrange will extend higher than Hornresp shows if using good PA drivers ...... The result should be more like a house curve with some extra presence in the upper mids if using a drivers like the Delta 10a or the Kappalite 3012HO ........ With our original 3-way Super Planar club tops the PA310s on the crossfiring baffle had no problem getting up to 1khz even when recessed deeply into the cabinet, the mid in our 3-way club tops took over at about 1khz ..
The LA12850 drivers had no problem reaching up to 1.5khz in a similar cabinet with recessed crossfiring baffle .
The KL 3012HO and Delta 10a should have no problem reaching 2khz or even 2.5khz if you really needed to cross that high to the CD in a budget build.... ..... Expect some lobing in the upper mids but the toed-in crossfiring baffle helps maintain some horizontal dispersion in such a scenario (where we would normally be beaming with a typical arrangement) .. .
Using the High-Q LPF scheme i could probably force the PA-310 to play out to 2khz with presence when recessed 10" or 12" inches into a Super Planar top . .
Guys ,
Also be sure to keep this in mind when modeling Super Planar tops in Hornresp:
The midrange will extend higher than Hornresp shows if using good PA drivers ...... The result should be more like a house curve with some extra presence in the upper mids if using a drivers like the Delta 10a or the Kappalite 3012HO ........ With our original 3-way Super Planar club tops the PA310s on the crossfiring baffle had no problem getting up to 1khz even when recessed deeply into the cabinet, the mid in our 3-way club tops took over at about 1khz ..
The LA12850 drivers had no problem reaching up to 1.5khz in a similar cabinet with recessed crossfiring baffle .
The KL 3012HO and Delta 10a should have no problem reaching 2khz or even 2.5khz if you really needed to cross that high to the CD in a budget build.... ..... Expect some lobing in the upper mids but the toed-in crossfiring baffle helps maintain some horizontal dispersion in such a scenario (where we would normally be beaming with a typical arrangement) .. .
Using the High-Q LPF scheme i could probably force the PA-310 to play out to 2khz with presence when recessed 10" or 12" inches into a Super Planar top . .
Guys,
I did not use any other dual 10 'template' I just started from scratch since I did not see any hr example for a dual top planar. So my hr sim is based on what has been told by Matthew in this topic. So probably i am missing important clues in how to modal this the right way. Yes rear vented OD it is.
This is my latest try.
edit: I just noticed the MMJ variant above.
Grey is my scratchbuild, black is MMJ's:
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