Dayton HO 12 Super Planar 8th collage
Working on some simulations for the Dayton 12 HO 4 ohm driver .... It has a good motor for the price ... This Hornresp model is using two of these Daytons.... For $280 dollars worth of drivers in 420 liters worth of cabinet these are decent results
...
Only thing that concerns me here is the aluminum cone, it is not something that is normally used in horn loading at this scale (although aluminum and titanium diaphragms are used in HF compression drivers)...
Working on some simulations for the Dayton 12 HO 4 ohm driver .... It has a good motor for the price ... This Hornresp model is using two of these Daytons.... For $280 dollars worth of drivers in 420 liters worth of cabinet these are decent results
... Only thing that concerns me here is the aluminum cone, it is not something that is normally used in horn loading at this scale (although aluminum and titanium diaphragms are used in HF compression drivers)...
@ MMJ
Hi, what has interested me, apart from the other good stuff, is just how low the GD is. I don't recall seeing you include a HPF in the sims ? which of course helps in attaining a low figure by not having one. Even so, it's very comendable
Why do think this design is able to acheive that, over overs that don't ?
I recently did a design for someone that also gave very good GD results, inspite of incorporating a HPF & 2 Para EQ's ! I was surprised. small box for big VAS ? The fact that he later posted, DUH, that he actually wanted the box to be used above 400HZ, is beside the point.
Leaving aside whether or not GD can be heard etc, i believe it's just good practise to try to get it as low as possible. A bit like designing audio electronics for low THD, rather than it'll do at 0.1% as most people might not notice etc !
Hi, what has interested me, apart from the other good stuff, is just how low the GD is. I don't recall seeing you include a HPF in the sims ? which of course helps in attaining a low figure by not having one. Even so, it's very comendable
Why do think this design is able to acheive that, over overs that don't ?I recently did a design for someone that also gave very good GD results, inspite of incorporating a HPF & 2 Para EQ's ! I was surprised. small box for big VAS ? The fact that he later posted, DUH, that he actually wanted the box to be used above 400HZ, is beside the point.
Leaving aside whether or not GD can be heard etc, i believe it's just good practise to try to get it as low as possible. A bit like designing audio electronics for low THD, rather than it'll do at 0.1% as most people might not notice etc !
GD
Zero D,
I am very happy with how well the Group Delay worked out with this combination .... The bass should sound tight, articulate and coherent
..
Not all Super Planars have such low group delay but in this case the driver parameters, our chosen tuning, and the cabinet design all compliment each other very favorably ....
You are correct about the lack of HPF in the simulation, i didn't use any filters
...
Zero D,
I am very happy with how well the Group Delay worked out with this combination .... The bass should sound tight, articulate and coherent
.. Not all Super Planars have such low group delay but in this case the driver parameters, our chosen tuning, and the cabinet design all compliment each other very favorably ....
You are correct about the lack of HPF in the simulation, i didn't use any filters
...
Update
Ok this is just an updated collage .... The same as seen at post #463 except for the addition of the information about how to set up the chamber type (above the Hornresp inputs)..
Someone had asked me to compare our Super Planar 8th cabinet to a simple 4th order bandpass using the same drivers , so i overlapped the curves in 1/8th space (.5pi)....
To avoid an any apples to oranges comparisons , this is the same transfer function , same drive level , same software ..... I made the 4th order BP tuned to 40hz ..... It is a relatively small box but the performance falls behind by a considerable amount .....
With the 4th order BP the excursion is getting out of control at 19.6mm one-way by 30hz .... As opposed to the The Super Planar's cone control which is still looking pretty good at 30hz (7.8mm) and by 28hz it hits 12.6mm , so still within the safe and clean range ...
Ok , so that comparison graph shows 6db gain at 40hz ... That is the same as quadrupling your drive level relative to the 4th order BP... (in other words like going from 1200 watts to 4800 watts) ....
Then at 70hz we have 15db of gain (relative to the 4th order BP) , which is like multiplying your power x30 ..... So it is like going from 1200w to 36,000 watts!!! Hahaha
...... That is an extreme example because the 4th order BP is just completely terrible at 70hz .....
Decibel Calculator
Ok this is just an updated collage .... The same as seen at post #463 except for the addition of the information about how to set up the chamber type (above the Hornresp inputs)..
Someone had asked me to compare our Super Planar 8th cabinet to a simple 4th order bandpass using the same drivers , so i overlapped the curves in 1/8th space (.5pi)....
To avoid an any apples to oranges comparisons , this is the same transfer function , same drive level , same software ..... I made the 4th order BP tuned to 40hz ..... It is a relatively small box but the performance falls behind by a considerable amount .....
With the 4th order BP the excursion is getting out of control at 19.6mm one-way by 30hz .... As opposed to the The Super Planar's cone control which is still looking pretty good at 30hz (7.8mm) and by 28hz it hits 12.6mm , so still within the safe and clean range
...Ok , so that comparison graph shows 6db gain at 40hz ... That is the same as quadrupling your drive level relative to the 4th order BP... (in other words like going from 1200 watts to 4800 watts) ....
Then at 70hz we have 15db of gain (relative to the 4th order BP) , which is like multiplying your power x30 ..... So it is like going from 1200w to 36,000 watts!!! Hahaha
...... That is an extreme example because the 4th order BP is just completely terrible at 70hz .....Decibel Calculator
It is possible that those drivers just aren't very suitable for a 4th order bandpass ..
But the guy wanted to see the comparison, so we made it for him .. .
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UPDATE on Mr Vansickle's competition Super Planar 8th with 8" driver
I have an updated report from Mr Vansickle about the recent experience he had taking his Super Planar 8th cabinet to a another local competition in North Carolina......
It is the second competition that he has brought this Super Planar 8th to... .. ... This is the cabinet which is tuned to 50hz and contains an 8" driver......
He swapped out his smaller amp for a large amp, just for the competition .... He knew it was an oversized amp, so he didn't push it hard ....... The amp was a Brutal Sounds brand 5k .. . He drove it just hard enough to get what he thinks was probably at least a clean 1.2kw out of the amp and he scored 146.4 decibels ..
146.4db !!
and that is with just a single 8" subwoofer ... The Resilient Sounds RS 8 .
The little subwoofer survived this round of abuse no problem but he says he will push it harder next time to see if he can squeeze another decibel out of it ..... 
I am absolutely THRILLED to hear about this driver surviving in our box at such extreme drive levels ..... I see this as a very good sign , and an achievement, even if it doesn't endure the next run at even higher power levels 
If anyone was wondering which build this is that i am talking about , here are some photos and a 3d sketch :
Mr Vansickle says he would also like to build a Super Planar 8th tuned lower, for use as a daily driving cabinet ... .So i am trying to talk him into a Dayton HO 12 , and a tuning in the range of 30hz to 35hz ..... Cabinet size will remain reasonable with that driver
I have an updated report from Mr Vansickle about the recent experience he had taking his Super Planar 8th cabinet to a another local competition in North Carolina......
It is the second competition that he has brought this Super Planar 8th to... .. ... This is the cabinet which is tuned to 50hz and contains an 8" driver......
He swapped out his smaller amp for a large amp, just for the competition .... He knew it was an oversized amp, so he didn't push it hard ....... The amp was a Brutal Sounds brand 5k .. . He drove it just hard enough to get what he thinks was probably at least a clean 1.2kw out of the amp and he scored 146.4 decibels ..
146.4db !!
and that is with just a single 8" subwoofer ... The Resilient Sounds RS 8 .
The little subwoofer survived this round of abuse no problem
but he says he will push it harder next time to see if he can squeeze another decibel out of it ..... I am absolutely THRILLED to hear about this driver surviving in our box at such extreme drive levels
..... I see this as a very good sign , and an achievement, even if it doesn't endure the next run at even higher power levels If anyone was wondering which build this is that i am talking about , here are some photos and a 3d sketch :
Mr Vansickle says he would also like to build a Super Planar 8th tuned lower, for use as a daily driving cabinet ... .So i am trying to talk him into a Dayton HO 12 , and a tuning in the range of 30hz to 35hz ..... Cabinet size will remain reasonable with that driver
146.4 dB from a single 8 inch driver! Congrats on a great performing design! 
He would most certainly win another dB or more by rounding all the sharp edges in the bends. If you get 146 dB in the car cabin you have 160 dB+ of sound pressure in the quarter wave paths, and any turbulent disturbance to the quarter wave resonance steals a lot of energy that would otherwise be used to pressurize the cabin.
At these sound pressure levels, small details can make a large difference.
Congrats on a great performing design! He would most certainly win another dB or more by rounding all the sharp edges in the bends. If you get 146 dB in the car cabin you have 160 dB+ of sound pressure in the quarter wave paths, and any turbulent disturbance to the quarter wave resonance steals a lot of energy that would otherwise be used to pressurize the cabin.
At these sound pressure levels, small details can make a large difference.
Resilient Sounds RS12 12" Subwoofer - D4
probably the RS 12 D4 has a very low price and has a good TS parameters for the Superplanar , better than RS 8 ....
But I can't find it on Europe....
probably the RS 12 D4 has a very low price and has a good TS parameters for the Superplanar , better than RS 8 ....
But I can't find it on Europe....
Interesting drivers on Europe:
MD Lab SW-C12
-Thiele looks very good
-Price 119€
-No Le info
-No Xmax info
-No reviews or measures on internet
Rainbow Audio SL-S12
-Thiele looks very good, Le and Xmax is included
-Price 159-175€
-No reviews or measures on internet
And luca4 i´m sure that if you search here, you can find something that fits your needs
MD Lab SW-C12
-Thiele looks very good
-Price 119€
-No Le info
-No Xmax info
-No reviews or measures on internet
Rainbow Audio SL-S12
-Thiele looks very good, Le and Xmax is included
-Price 159-175€
-No reviews or measures on internet
And luca4 i´m sure that if you search here, you can find something that fits your needs
Drivers, things to look for ..
Hey guys ,
About drivers .... In order for them to be suitable they must have enough motor force ...
When the published parameters don't include the BL (as many don't) you can look to the VAS to give the Qts more meaning at a glance, when looking through ads shopping for drivers ................. You do this by making a note of the VAS in reference to the Qts .... If the VAS figure is very low while being accompanied by a low Qts then this is indicates a strong motor, especially when the Le is low in relation to the Re ....
If you think you have found a good candidate you can take the time to plug the parameters into Hornresp and it will calculate the BL for you , and the effective BL (adjusted for "Lossy Inductance") ..
Lets take a look at the Dayton HO 12:
VAS= 50 liters (somewhat tight suspension for a 12" driver , although can be as low as in the 20s with some very tight 12s)
Qts= .3 (nice and low considering the VAS)
Re=3.2 ohms
Le= 1.75 (almost a 1:2 Le to Re ratio ...... A lower Le in relation to Re means that we retain more effective motor force after the Lossy Le is calculated)
and now lets take look at the Resilient Sounds RS 12:
VAS= 58.9 liters
Qts= .38
Re= 7.6 ohms
Le: 4.07
You can see from the above comparison that the RS 12's motor is not quite as strong as the Dayton's HO 12's motor ............ This is reflected by the required cabinet volume in simulation .... The Super Planar 8th is very demanding in regards to effective motor force .. .
Super Planar 8th cabinet size for dual 12s tuned to 35hz ..
DAYTON 12 HO 4ohm = 420 liters
RESILIENT RS 12 = 530 liters
(divide this volume by 2 for a single 12)
Hey guys ,
About drivers .... In order for them to be suitable they must have enough motor force ...
When the published parameters don't include the BL (as many don't) you can look to the VAS to give the Qts more meaning at a glance, when looking through ads shopping for drivers ................. You do this by making a note of the VAS in reference to the Qts .... If the VAS figure is very low while being accompanied by a low Qts then this is indicates a strong motor, especially when the Le is low in relation to the Re ....
If you think you have found a good candidate you can take the time to plug the parameters into Hornresp and it will calculate the BL for you , and the effective BL (adjusted for "Lossy Inductance") ..
Lets take a look at the Dayton HO 12:
VAS= 50 liters (somewhat tight suspension for a 12" driver , although can be as low as in the 20s with some very tight 12s)
Qts= .3 (nice and low considering the VAS)
Re=3.2 ohms
Le= 1.75 (almost a 1:2 Le to Re ratio ...... A lower Le in relation to Re means that we retain more effective motor force after the Lossy Le is calculated)
and now lets take look at the Resilient Sounds RS 12:
VAS= 58.9 liters
Qts= .38
Re= 7.6 ohms
Le: 4.07
You can see from the above comparison that the RS 12's motor is not quite as strong as the Dayton's HO 12's motor ............ This is reflected by the required cabinet volume in simulation .... The Super Planar 8th is very demanding in regards to effective motor force .. .
Super Planar 8th cabinet size for dual 12s tuned to 35hz ..
DAYTON 12 HO 4ohm = 420 liters
RESILIENT RS 12 = 530 liters
(divide this volume by 2 for a single 12)
146.4 dB from a single 8 inch driver!
THANK YOU JOHANNES!
The equivalent sound pressure level in halfspace is -18db-ish . .... So not so extreme when you think of it in those terms, around 128db , similar to a PA 18" in a less complex 40hz tuned cabinet, but yes definitely good for an 8" in a 50hz tuned cabinet
USRFobiwan ,
Thank you
Being tuned to 50hz means that the box doesn't have a lot of extension but it does reach up into the 150hz range (in simulation) , so a fair amount of bandwidth for a cabinet design that had extreme efficiency as it's primary focus ..... The bandwidth sets it apart from the typical one-note-wonder SPL boxes being used in car audio ....... The owner tells me that it is pleasantly "musical" sounding for many tracks that don't rely so heavily upon deep subbass content ..