Hi Guys,
this is my first thread at this forum.
I want to buid a small soundsytem. As sub i want to use 4 x 10 inch tapped horns. As Midtop I have 4x 6 inch Reflex enclosures.
Now I am looking for some kickbin for 80-190 hz (+-10hz)
I already have the B&C10PS26 left. I have some 8" drivers also, but I think the 10" is the better choice.
So i would be glad if anyone could help me or have an idea for a 10" frontloaded horn.
Regards
tuffgong
this is my first thread at this forum.
I want to buid a small soundsytem. As sub i want to use 4 x 10 inch tapped horns. As Midtop I have 4x 6 inch Reflex enclosures.
Now I am looking for some kickbin for 80-190 hz (+-10hz)
I already have the B&C10PS26 left. I have some 8" drivers also, but I think the 10" is the better choice.
So i would be glad if anyone could help me or have an idea for a 10" frontloaded horn.
Regards
tuffgong
0.62 Scale Karlson with Beta10cx 10 inch speaker
http://i.imgur.com/vnHnxao.jpg
Beta10cx in 0.62 scale Karlson (a bit less than 2 cubic foot external bulk) vs a Karlsonator 12 cabinet
If scaling, probably a 0.7 scale would reach a bit deeper than my 0.62 scale. 0.75 scale would be just about the size of the official K12.
You may not want the front shelf scaled - it could be shorter -
Karlson 15 plan from Radio and Television News January 1954. K15 was introduced in the fall
of 1952.
http://i.imgur.com/oRygnBt.png
The Karlson K12 was introduced in the fall of 1954 - First with a horizontal slot port and adjustable rear lodpass choke.
Then around 1956, K12 was modified to have a distributed slot port. Karlson, like other cabinets were mainly sold without drivers and I suspect the slit port helped with higher Qts speakers of the day. If driven with sine wave around tuning, those narrow slits will develop
very high air velocities and distort badly. That doesn't seem to happen with music transients but I would go with a single port - or maybe two just in case as opposed to the narrow slits. A 12 square inch port would be about right for a K12. Better to have one a bit big and adjust than a port too small.
1954 K12 Plan
http://i.imgur.com/ZMGQve3.png
1956 K12 Plan
https://public.bn1301.livefilestore...39j/transductor-bo.jpg?psid=1&rdrts=165109659
You could make a cabinet just a "bit" smaller than a K12 - say scale it so there's about one cubic foot rear chamber after driver displacement.
There was also a "Dutch" K12 - not Karlson designed but seemed to be popular, which used a distributed port with 3 large slots. It looked like it would tune very high but I think the front aperture was controlling system tuning like a series 6th order bandpass.
BTW, a compression driver can be added with a slotted pipe like Karlson's "X15" cabinet. K12 with the slanted panel would be a good candidate.
The slotted tube could be mou9nted internally, or placed on top as with the old Transylvania system
A one inch diameter pipe with ~5.3" long half ellipse slot works fine with one inch drivers
http://i.imgur.com/vnHnxao.jpg
Beta10cx in 0.62 scale Karlson (a bit less than 2 cubic foot external bulk) vs a Karlsonator 12 cabinet
If scaling, probably a 0.7 scale would reach a bit deeper than my 0.62 scale. 0.75 scale would be just about the size of the official K12.
You may not want the front shelf scaled - it could be shorter -
Karlson 15 plan from Radio and Television News January 1954. K15 was introduced in the fall
of 1952.
http://i.imgur.com/oRygnBt.png
The Karlson K12 was introduced in the fall of 1954 - First with a horizontal slot port and adjustable rear lodpass choke.
Then around 1956, K12 was modified to have a distributed slot port. Karlson, like other cabinets were mainly sold without drivers and I suspect the slit port helped with higher Qts speakers of the day. If driven with sine wave around tuning, those narrow slits will develop
very high air velocities and distort badly. That doesn't seem to happen with music transients but I would go with a single port - or maybe two just in case as opposed to the narrow slits. A 12 square inch port would be about right for a K12. Better to have one a bit big and adjust than a port too small.
1954 K12 Plan
http://i.imgur.com/ZMGQve3.png
1956 K12 Plan
https://public.bn1301.livefilestore...39j/transductor-bo.jpg?psid=1&rdrts=165109659
You could make a cabinet just a "bit" smaller than a K12 - say scale it so there's about one cubic foot rear chamber after driver displacement.
There was also a "Dutch" K12 - not Karlson designed but seemed to be popular, which used a distributed port with 3 large slots. It looked like it would tune very high but I think the front aperture was controlling system tuning like a series 6th order bandpass.
BTW, a compression driver can be added with a slotted pipe like Karlson's "X15" cabinet. K12 with the slanted panel would be a good candidate.
The slotted tube could be mou9nted internally, or placed on top as with the old Transylvania system
A one inch diameter pipe with ~5.3" long half ellipse slot works fine with one inch drivers
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0.62 Scale Karlson with Beta10cx 10 inch speaker
http://i.imgur.com/vnHnxao.jpg
Beta10cx in 0.62 scale Karlson (a bit less than 2 cubic foot external bulk) vs a Karlsonator 12 cabinet
I'm trying to figure out what would be the draw of building a design that has a massive and broad ~15dB "dip" in its response around 500 Hz and a passband response that looks a bit like a cross-section of the grand canyon.
IMO there are simpler designs available will likely have a smoother passband. A simple FLH with the 10" driver, for example. And easily simmed in HornResp, no guestimmating of compartment size required.
It's measured in a cramped room, with 1/6th order smoothing.
Those measurements are good for comparing the 2 designs to each other but as they both have a broad dip around 500 Hz, it could as well be a room influence, be due too the measurement setup as well as be design related. 10 - 12 dB dips measured in-room are to be expected.
Johan
A 10" Rocket would be OK with a coax - in larger sizes they're awkward to lift onto a tripod. I would stick with a regular Karlson for ease of carrying and placement - plus a regular K is a natural to add an internal K-tube tweeter.
Carl N. made some klam10. Up close, they can have some "bounce around"- "sea shell" artifacts as the speaker is buried pretty deep. I have seen horns put on top of a klam such as the double klam on top of a golf cart
it would be interesting to see what xrk971's K15 program says for some little K with their vent shut off. (sealed rear chamber) qts or around 1 would keep the back chamber small. The OP has a strong motor 10 so that may benefit
from a vented K. A K12 should be ok.
Here's Carl's klam10 with the old strong motor B102
my friend who cut a couple of klam10 for me, went by a radius given by Carl - I should have
double checked that vs the slot length as things turned out choked
Jess Oliver's "Magna-Clam" was the same speaker I think as Karlson's APX100 - a 15" Altec
with internal K-tube. They were installed at Radio City Music Hall
I have a klam15 based on that Alan Weiss "Rocket" (the original "Rocket" was Karlson's KR5 mini speaker
with like a 4 inch tv/radio speaker) The 15 klam sounds pretty good but is hard to move.
Klam15 with Eminence 15 coax and a K-tube poked down the HF horn's throat. By having the tube
exit near the main aperture, dispersion is pretty good/useful plus the highs are mainly removed from the influence
of the front chamber - it actually sounds pretty good with the coax horn buried deep.
Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupb8X6iZ6I
Carl N. made some klam10. Up close, they can have some "bounce around"- "sea shell" artifacts as the speaker is buried pretty deep. I have seen horns put on top of a klam such as the double klam on top of a golf cart
it would be interesting to see what xrk971's K15 program says for some little K with their vent shut off. (sealed rear chamber) qts or around 1 would keep the back chamber small. The OP has a strong motor 10 so that may benefit
from a vented K. A K12 should be ok.
Here's Carl's klam10 with the old strong motor B102
my friend who cut a couple of klam10 for me, went by a radius given by Carl - I should have
double checked that vs the slot length as things turned out choked
Jess Oliver's "Magna-Clam" was the same speaker I think as Karlson's APX100 - a 15" Altec
with internal K-tube. They were installed at Radio City Music Hall
I have a klam15 based on that Alan Weiss "Rocket" (the original "Rocket" was Karlson's KR5 mini speaker
with like a 4 inch tv/radio speaker) The 15 klam sounds pretty good but is hard to move.
Klam15 with Eminence 15 coax and a K-tube poked down the HF horn's throat. By having the tube
exit near the main aperture, dispersion is pretty good/useful plus the highs are mainly removed from the influence
of the front chamber - it actually sounds pretty good with the coax horn buried deep.
Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mupb8X6iZ6I
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Hey DJK
mid 1960's K12 kit with 12-hole port - is there a lot lower air velocity from this port than the saw blade height slits used in the 1956 K12? - a nice set of K12 made pretty may be my next speakers after the baby University Classic FLH
same model with blank port panel
rough dimensions from kit brochure - all material was 3/4" particleboard
mid 1960's K12 kit with 12-hole port - is there a lot lower air velocity from this port than the saw blade height slits used in the 1956 K12? - a nice set of K12 made pretty may be my next speakers after the baby University Classic FLH
same model with blank port panel
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
rough dimensions from kit brochure - all material was 3/4" particleboard
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We're talking about a broad dip that goes down 15dB @ 500 Hz. Considering the wavelengths involved, this is likely due to a problem with the design, NOT a "room effect". So no wonder it shows up in both measurements.
Look, to me believing that the Karlson design is a sound one is a bit like believing that vaccines cause autism. No matter how the damned science says otherwise, people still believe in it. The Karlson design came out in the 50's, and it was done by a guy who designed on "intuition", i.e. no real science involved. The "theory" he used for the design has been rubbished over and over, and yet still the design persists. I'll give you a few quotes - notice the dates on them!
I did some searching around, and I'm not seeing much PROPER kick-bins designed around 10" drivers.
Here's a few examples that use larger drivers:
MKH-230
MKB-230
Here's one that uses two 10s, and a more complex build, with no HornResp sim: MT102
For best results, I suggest taking one of these designs as a starting point, work out the HornResp sim, then resize for use with a 10" driver by reworking the sim to get the best results with your driver's t/s parameters.
10ps26, as expected, looks pretty terrible in a scaled-down (0.7) La Scala like Volvotreter's early experiment. In theory it looks good in a 0.7 scale University Classic but that thing has a tough to cut and fit throat.
that B&C would be fun for my toys
If the throat could be simplified then it might be worth a go - I think 0.7 size is about 6 cubic foot bulk
that B&C would be fun for my toys
If the throat could be simplified then it might be worth a go - I think 0.7 size is about 6 cubic foot bulk
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There is a CUBO KICK12 https://freespeakerplans.com/forum/7-general-forum/20750-cubo-kick-15
Another option: https://www.freespeakerplans.com/plans/15-plans/midtopcab/35-mt-130
...though you'd need to run the params via HornResp for your driver in that alignment to see if it's a good match.
I'd be tempted to try to convert it to a vented design, to get a bit more SPL at low frequencies.
...though you'd need to run the params via HornResp for your driver in that alignment to see if it's a good match.
I'd be tempted to try to convert it to a vented design, to get a bit more SPL at low frequencies.
You are great.
@Brian: Yes there are no plans for Kicks with 10". That's why i am asking
I know the french designs by Marc and asked him already if the B+C will work in a scaled MKT-30 MKT-30
But he said no.
And the MT130 is a Midtop starting at 150HZ. i am looking for a cabinet from 80-190hz. I have a lot of discussion in another forum about my B+C in this cabinet as Midtop. And it will not work in this. At first the xmax is to high and in that kind of flh the driver will not make a large xmax. so the problem will be cooling the coil. Drivers for that kind of flh need a xmax of max.2mm
@Freddi: Thanks for that sims. Indeed looks the sim for the Univ.Classic with the B+C good. Where can I found a plan? I am carpenter. So woodwork is not the problem.
The CuboKick is ok. But as I read in that thread it starts at 110hz with a 12". I think thats a bit to high.
About the size: It would be good, if the cabinet is not bigger than 55-60cm (21-23") in length. W + D is not so importent.
It should go up til max. 200hz. My Reflex Tops can go down far enough. But I think I will use them til 150-180Hz because of Xmax at high level.
Is there a reason, why 8" and 10" are not used in kickbins?
And maybe a simple reflex enclosure will work good as kick. or what do you mean?
@Brian: Yes there are no plans for Kicks with 10". That's why i am asking
I know the french designs by Marc and asked him already if the B+C will work in a scaled MKT-30 MKT-30
But he said no.
And the MT130 is a Midtop starting at 150HZ. i am looking for a cabinet from 80-190hz. I have a lot of discussion in another forum about my B+C in this cabinet as Midtop. And it will not work in this. At first the xmax is to high and in that kind of flh the driver will not make a large xmax. so the problem will be cooling the coil. Drivers for that kind of flh need a xmax of max.2mm
@Freddi: Thanks for that sims. Indeed looks the sim for the Univ.Classic with the B+C good. Where can I found a plan? I am carpenter. So woodwork is not the problem.
The CuboKick is ok. But as I read in that thread it starts at 110hz with a 12". I think thats a bit to high.
About the size: It would be good, if the cabinet is not bigger than 55-60cm (21-23") in length. W + D is not so importent.
It should go up til max. 200hz. My Reflex Tops can go down far enough. But I think I will use them til 150-180Hz because of Xmax at high level.
Is there a reason, why 8" and 10" are not used in kickbins?
And maybe a simple reflex enclosure will work good as kick. or what do you mean?
Here's the University Classic horn dimensions - the scaled back chamber will need some sort of "fill|" to reduce its volume down to around 14-15 liters (maybe expanding foam - ?)
http://www.geocities.ws/loudspeakerguru/CorrectedUniversityClassic.gif
Here is a thread on the University Classic horn at the Klipsch forums
https://community.klipsch.com/index...icdean-horn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/&
my builder's picture - hope it plays well
http://www.geocities.ws/loudspeakerguru/CorrectedUniversityClassic.gif
Here is a thread on the University Classic horn at the Klipsch forums
https://community.klipsch.com/index...icdean-horn-profile-need-driver-choice-help/&
my builder's picture - hope it plays well
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