Vintage JBL for subwofer

[Shhh its me]

The 12dB/oct is the highpass of the satellites. It means you'll get an extra little hump in spl just below the crossover frequency. If you run the filter at 100Hz or lower, it's no big desø. It's something you can use while you gather funds to bribe the missus... ;-)

Johan-Kr

I don't think his Yamaha Amp has selectable subwoffer crossover frequency going by specifications available on the US yamaha site - fixed at 90Hz but LPF at 18dB [not 12dB]


....and, it's not a "bribe", it's a distraction.

 

[academia50]

I've been working on the settings I had in mind with the Yamaha 5.1 .... total failure!
The output of the RCA connector sends a filtered signal at 90 Hz only when operating movies or sound sources with digital processing ....

I think this could work ....



Marchand MB42 300W subwoofer power amplifier

 

[Shhh its me]

I've been working on the settings I had in mind with the Yamaha 5.1 .... total failure!
The output of the RCA connector sends a filtered signal at 90 Hz only when operating movies or sound sources with digital processing ....

What if you have the Front speakers set to 'small' in the initial setup programming?

Does LF signals that would go to Front speakers then go to sub output RCA to drive an active subwoofer?

This provides more headroom for the 'small' speaker setup channels because that LF bandwidth is sent to Subwoofer amp.

I think my Yamaha 7.1 does this but I've never tried because all 'large' speakers and no sub yet.

I think this could work ....

Marchand MB42 300W subwoofer power amplifier

Yes, with a single Sub rather the 2... and same lack of signal when other than 5.1 movies unless it does that 'small' setting effect described above.

 

[academia50]

Shhh its me :

Thank you very much for your recommendations. But I have abandoned the project, not so much because of the supposed incapacity of the old JBL speaker, as by the electronic part, it complicates unnecessarily.
I will use these boxes for the rear speakers of the HT system, the front DTQWTII will go, and I will have to acquire (when WAF is more accessible ) a classic active subwofer. Of course, you will have to have high-level connections to connect with the LP amplifier and low level for the Yamaha. This way I can have everything connected permanently and I will only have to activate the sound system that I want to use.

 

[academia50]

Buy a plate amplifer with the built-in xover.

No need for a highpass filter, there's nothing down there unless ur running LP or some extraordinary CDs... maybe some video DVDs...

Bear, this is the most simple and effective solution, I will use my vintage speakers as I had planned from the beginning. There will be no more speaker boxes in the house, and WAF happy!
Good advice !
These Dayton Audio models have everything I need, with 100 watts covered, but that's not 220 volts, so I'll go for the 250-watt model, it's only about 3 db more and it's always better to have a little Reserve power. The subsonic filter will prevent mechanical damage from excess Xmax. I will go by him and I will tell you the result:


Dayton Audio SA100 100W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier - Subwoofer Plate Amps - Plate Amplifiers - Loudspeaker Components

Dayton Audio SPA250 250W Subwoofer Plate Amplifier - Subwoofer Plate Amps - Plate Amplifiers - Loudspeaker Components


Thanks and greetings to this great DIY community!

 

[academia50]

Friends,I know this is a DIY lover's place.

I am, and you can see it here, I have tried with relative success to extend the response in low frequencies of my speakers . See last post´s, please.

DTQWTII from Argentina

But I can not make my own subwofer for reasons that do not matter here.
So I will have to buy something that is available in my country, for example :

Polk Audio DSW-PRO 660 Wireless Subwoofer - $19.039,99 : AVI Sistemas!, Audio, Video, Home theatre, TV LED, LCD y mas


https://www1.crutchfield.com/p_107DSWP660/Polk-Audio-DSW-PRO-660wi.html

My budget comes up here, maybe a little more if it's really justified...

But I listen to this and I think if I'm not throwing my money, or is this man forcing the subwofer just to show that he moves a lot of air?
Should I trust this review ?

That awful distortion puzzles me! Is that something desirable?

Minute .35 onwards ... what is this ?

My polk dsw 660 1000 watts dinamicos - YouTube

My noble and vintage AKG K-141 Studio headphones work perfectly!

This is what I should expect from the subwofers for HT?

Can I use this subwoof to listen to clean basses of normal music? I do not want kicks or blows of air on my face ....


Thank you for your opinions .

 

[academia50]

Has anyone seen the video of the link on YT? I

.30 minutes and up:
My polk dsw 660 1000 watts dinamicos - YouTube

 

[academia50]

I believe understand the lack of answers to my doubts .....

The subwofers must have cones with a lot of travel ( xmax ) to generate much SPL, and the voice coils that supot many, many watts .

And, then so, and only so, can delivery a lot of sound pressure in very low frecuencies .....


Good, i have to admile that i do not interest too much to feel these slopes.....anbd less if they are behind my .......

I do understand that others parsons enjoy that experience, may be here are many adicts .....

On tastes, there is no written ......

The good start at 0.31 minutes

Regards and thanks for all ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dM0m-FxEXM

 

[badman]

25 HZ Fs, 70 Watts RMS power handling, 80 DB / 1W / 4.6 mts. They are not used to reproduce 30/40 hertz at home listening levels ?

4.6 meters is not the standard measurement distance, 1M is, and the woofers are 90dB there.

The power handling is low on almost all AlNiCo motors, highest I'm aware of is 200W or so from Gauss 15"s.

As subs, Xmax is much more important than power handling at the lowest frequencies and the 123A/2213 is around 7mm (1 way) which is solid for AlNiCo drivers. I advocate multiples, to address the Xmax/Power issues.

If the impedance were flat it would take only 10W at 33Hz to use up Xmax, but in a large enclosure as these drivers demand, there will be a significant uptick in impedance through a significant portion of the bass range, lowering power requirements (and heat through the coil, heat being the largest issue due to the adhesives).

It's rather ironic, but the issues would be more likely to rear their heads higher in frequency, towards the top end of sub range.

 

[academia50]

4.6 meters is not the standard measurement distance, 1M is, and the woofers are 90dB there.

I do not know how you get to that result.

See the post 30 , 32 and my answer:


" In those years T / S parameters are not specified.
The efficiency was not standardized 2.83 volts / 1 meter
So 14C says 80 dB to 4.6 meters, if we consider that every time we double the distance the power decreases by 3 db, we have in theory 95 db approx. 3 db are twice the power for the same spl, I find little 92 db with 2.79 volts."


You have to understand that this vintage driver is installed and running in its box. If I would have to buy a new driver and build a new box, I would go for something modern and I can get it here, 18 sound drivers for example.

The experiment works very well, I have found the low frequencies I needed for a SPL more than enough for my room.



Please take a look here, post 212 and later :


DTQWTII from Argentina

Thank you as well, regards friend


( I know you're a good boy despite your nickname and your intention is to help ) .

 

[academia50]

Hi.

I relive this thread.
I have not bought a commercial subwofer.
I have been using the JBL LE14C speaker as a subwofer, but I have to admit that as several people indicated here, I have found the limitations of Xmax.

I am using a DAyton SPA250 plate amplifier.
I have tried connecting in series the 2 speakers first, (at the expense of lowering the DF) 16 ohms of load, to decrease the power and thus protect the speakers, and then in parallel achieving the maximum power of the amplifier with a load of 4 ohms . (250 watts / 2 , 125 watts for each speaker) This behaved much better, but in some recordings the displacement of the diaphragm / VC assembly was excessive when I wanted to logar a high spl, and I could hear the blow of the coil at the end of the polar piece ..... imminent danger of total destruction .....

Therefore, I am considering new speakers and boxes...


https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_18A_cab.pdf

I have to consider the speakers available here, and the options here are not many...

So thinking about achieving a good match with the DTQWT using Eminence Delta Lite 2510 II, I think I decide for 2 x Eminence Delta Pro 18 A.

I have been observing the subwofer design recommended by Eminence in a single box, thus achieving 4 ohms final and would take advantage of the maximum power of the plate amplifier.

See:

Delta Pro-18A Two By 18 Subwoofer


I'm excited about this design because I could locate a single cabinet in a corner of the living room, building the prism design.
But I have doubts if this is a good idea, because in case it does not reach the power, if I wanted to change in the future for some amplifier for more powerful subwofer and that had built-in DSP (PE Beringher Inuke 3000 DSP) I would lose the possibility of use it in stereo.

Do I have to go through two smaller cabinets ?

See:

Delta Pro-18A Small Vented Woofer Box

What do you think ?
Any comment will be very appreciated.

 

[Fenalaar]

Hi.

I relive this thread.
I have not bought a commercial subwofer.
I have been using the JBL LE14C speaker as a subwofer, but I have to admit that as several people indicated here, I have found the limitations of Xmax.

I am using a DAyton SPA250 plate amplifier.
I have tried connecting in series the 2 speakers first, (at the expense of lowering the DF) 16 ohms of load, to decrease the power and thus protect the speakers, and then in parallel achieving the maximum power of the amplifier with a load of 4 ohms . (250 watts / 2 , 125 watts for each speaker) This behaved much better, but in some recordings the displacement of the diaphragm / VC assembly was excessive when I wanted to logar a high spl, and I could hear the blow of the coil at the end of the polar piece ..... imminent danger of total destruction .....

Therefore, I am considering new speakers and boxes...


https://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_Pro_18A_cab.pdf

I have to consider the speakers available here, and the options here are not many...

So thinking about achieving a good match with the DTQWT using Eminence Delta Lite 2510 II, I think I decide for 2 x Eminence Delta Pro 18 A.

I have been observing the subwofer design recommended by Eminence in a single box, thus achieving 4 ohms final and would take advantage of the maximum power of the plate amplifier.

See:

Delta Pro-18A Two By 18 Subwoofer


I'm excited about this design because I could locate a single cabinet in a corner of the living room, building the prism design.
But I have doubts if this is a good idea, because in case it does not reach the power, if I wanted to change in the future for some amplifier for more powerful subwofer and that had built-in DSP (PE Beringher Inuke 3000 DSP) I would lose the possibility of use it in stereo.

Do I have to go through two smaller cabinets ?

See:

Delta Pro-18A Small Vented Woofer Box

What do you think ?
Any comment will be very appreciated.

The Emnence Deltapro 18A is still a pro audio subwoofer, with all that entails.

What is considered a subwoofer in pro audio, is completely different from what a subwoofer in home audio or cinema means. In pro audio, the sub is meant to give power and punch to instruments, so it rapidly rolls off below 30-35Hz. The driver has considerable power handling,, so it can provide very high spl, at frequencies over the cabinet tuning frequency.

If you go for a vented enclosure, the low Xmax, at 6.7mm means you’ll risk running into overexcursion or mechanical damage if you play anything at high(ish) volume with much low frequency content from 15-20Hz.

Consider making a 100 litre sealed enclosure. The slacker rolloff curve matches a normal room much better, and sealed enclosures limits excursion. In a room of 50-60 square meters, the driver rolloff s compensated with the room gain.


Here’s a couple quick sims with the driver in optimum vented and sealed enclosures.
Note that the driver properties means that the sealed enclosure will need a little eq, but the vented enclosure isn’t much better, as it starts to rolloff too early.

The excursion curve is the thing you should look at - here the excursion is within acceptable limits for the sealed enclosure, while the reflex box goes bananas at low frequencies.

Red=vented, green=sealed.

Response

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Excursion

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If you want a budget home sub with common drivers, look for a 12-15» car sub driver with Qt between 0,38-0,48 or so, and an Fs below 22-25Hz.

Johan-Kr

 

[academia50]

The Emnence Deltapro 18A is still a pro audio subwoofer, with all that entails.

Everything is a compromise, I must evaluate pros and cons. It is true that subwofers designed for PA in general have high sensitivity, low FS and ability to handle many watts for use in large and / or open environments. The 6.70 mm Xmax is not so bad. I do not think I need much more, this speaker is designed for BR systems, well tuned it will not pump air in the style of commercial subs for HT. The Eminence Delta Pro 18 A even has a limited working range in frequencies (37 to 200 hertz, it is a subwofer) I do not see the problem of using this in a home environment. On the contrary, the gain of the room will make it not take so much power from the dedicated Dayton amplifier. The speaker will be charged by the room according to its SD and the volume of it. In my case there are two environments attached, 6 x4x 3.30 mts. and 3 x5x 2.80 mts., making a total of 121 m3 (4273.07 cubic feet)
The punch that you say is reproduced by the DTQWT II, ​​which carries 2x10 Eminence Delta Lite II. And it was chosen by Troels for use in home environments, although it was designed for guitar or PA applications.
Remember that I will only use this subwoofer from 40 hertz down, is what I am doing and I have achieved a good integration, despite having the JBL a very heavy cone. I hope to improve it, of course.
The limitation that I currently have is in the handling of power, and I will tell you that the Xmax is not so bad, if the cabinet is perfectly calculated, that's why I will copy exactly one of the manufacturer's designs in case of deciding to go for them.
In effect, there is a fall (typical of BR below FB) but look at your own graph (thanks for that), - 18 db from 40 to 20 hz. That's the area in which I increase the power of the Dayton to level with the satellites, (which are not small precisely, they have the punch and hit that you mention) and then the overall volume is selected from the main amplifier ..

 

[academia50]

If you want a budget home sub with common drivers, look for a 12-15» car sub driver with Qt between 0,38-0,48 or so, and an Fs below 22-25Hz.

I have been seeing that many people use JBL GTO1514.

But I do not like that polypropylene cone. In large sizes, (like 15 inches), it tends to deform, so in general manufacturers add ribs to give greater rigidity and achieve the effect of piston.

But if there is something ugly according to my personal taste, it is this....

Also this speaker is not manufactured anymore, and the version that I can get here is the 4 ohms.
And I want to use two speakers for subwoofers (I've gotten used to it, wow, you have to listen to that presence in the whole room) so 2 ohms in parallel is too low a charge for the board amplifier.
There is a dual voice coil, the 1514 D, with two speakers could achieve 4 final ohms, but is no longer available in the audio houses around here.

I still think that Eminence Delta Pro 18 A is a good choice, but I am a person willing to admit that I can be wrong .....
I just need more opinions ....

 

[Brian Steele]

I have been seeing that many people use JBL GTO1514.

But I do not like that polypropylene cone. In large sizes, (like 15 inches), it tends to deform, so in general manufacturers add ribs to give greater rigidity and achieve the effect of piston.

It could be just styling. However I don't think that a properly-designed poly cone is going to be any more or less susceptible to flex at bass frequencies than say a paper cone. That driver however will do a lot better at low frequencies than the pro audio driver that you're talking about.

Also this speaker is not manufactured anymore, and the version that I can get here is the 4 ohms.
And I want to use two speakers for subwoofers (I've gotten used to it, wow, you have to listen to that presence in the whole room) so 2 ohms in parallel is too low a charge for the board amplifier.

So, connect them in series, for an 8 ohm load

 

[5th element]

If you have access to eminence drivers can't you use their lab series subwoofers?

 

[academia50]

It could be just styling. However I don't think that a properly-designed poly cone is going to be any more or less susceptible to flex at bass frequencies than say a paper cone.

Hello Brian, thanks for your answer.
I remembered reading the following about polypropylene cones:

The Ariel and the ME2

If you're contemplating deep and natural-sounding bass , .........., steer clear of the 10" to 15" poly-cone subwoofers that are so common these days.

The first reason? Polypropylene simply isn't a very rigid material; it isn't much more rigid than Tupperware (tm), and can easily have that characteristic "plastic" sound when it is used for cones larger than 8 inches. The "give" of the soft cone results in higher IM distortion than stiffer cone materials like treated paper, Kevlar, or carbon-fiber/paper composites. There's a good reason you don't see polypropylene used in load-bearing applications; it begins to "creep" and deform at fairly low values of mechnical stress. Treated paper, Kevlar, and carbon-fiber behave differently, and tend to be rigid up to the point of deformation.

That driver however will do a lot better at low frequencies than the pro audio driver that you're talking about.

I appreciate your qualified opinion, but why do you consider it better?

So, connect them in series, for an 8 ohm load

I want to use two subwoofer speakers to achieve stereo bass in the future, (I will replace the Dayton plate amplifier that has mono output by Bheringer Inuke with DSP that has stereo outputs), but until then the only option available to achieve 4 ohms final ( and thus have 250 watts rms instead of 125 to 8 ohms) are two 8 ohms speakers in parallel.

JBL GTO 1541D is not available here ...( double voice coil version) . That is the only option to achieve 4 ohms, connecting to 8 ohms first its two coils (in series), and then connect in parallel both speakers.

 

[Brian Steele]

Hello Brian, thanks for your answer.
I remembered reading the following about polypropylene cones:

Distortion can be easily measured, but guess what's missing from that diatribe to back up those statements? I tend to give such broad statements without backing data the due attention they deserve

I appreciate your qualified opinion, but why do you consider it better?

Lower Fs, lower Vas, medium Q, high Xmax, all add up to the capability for deep bass in a small enclosure.

 

[academia50]

If you have access to eminence drivers can't you use their lab series subwoofers?

At one point consider the Danley DTS10, and I thought about placing your tremendous box in the center of the room as if it were a table to support the drinks and also to rest your legs on top of it!

But there is no Lab 12 of Eminence, and at this moment we have suffered another tremendous devaluation of the Argentine peso against the dollar, in less than a year, which means that there are fewer and fewer offers to import if you do not have anyone to sell to?

DTS10 | Danley Sounds Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

 

[academia50]

Distortion can be easily measured, but guess what's missing from that diatribe to back up those statements? I tend to give such broad statements without backing data the due attention they deserve




Lower Fs, lower Vas, medium Q, high Xmax, all add up to the capability for deep bass in a small enclosure.

Well, I guess I'll have to reconsider my opinion on this speaker ...
But I do not use the modeling programs and I see a lot of controversy there.
I would need some boxes already tested, with good references and all the dimensions for this speaker .....

JBL 15" box recommendation - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

JBL GTO1514 displacement?

Maybe someone can guide me.....

It will be easy to build a grid to hide the aspect of speaker for car audio .....

( although I will have to build four subwofers to have 4 ohms ....)