Hi, so I want to build a nice set of Hi-Fi subs for my living room, using single 12" woofers. I have been playing with WinISD, doing sims of different woofers and designs, but I am not experienced in loudspeaker design.
At the moment my top candidate is the Monacor SPH-300KE kevlar coned woofer (see attached specs), which seems to be amazingly good - especially for the price. To give it some competition, I put it up against the best ScanSpeak 12" sub woofer, and the results are remarkably close! The Scanspeak goes 4hz lower at -3db, and makes do with a smaller cabinet volume. But the curves are identical down to 40hz, and both even have the same sensitivity (please see attachments). Phase angle plot is also very close. Now keeping in mind that the Monacor costs 25% of the Scanspeak, the choice seems simple..
But I was starting to wonder if these results will transfer to the real world? Yes I know I will never get that completely flat frequency response in a living room, but does the performance from WinISD sim hold up relatively speaking?
I have entered all Thiele parameters from the official datasheets, but could these be misleading for the Monacor, or is it really that good? I am of course hoping that it is.
Would love to hear from experienced WinISD users, and people familiar with the Monacor SPH-300KE..
At the moment my top candidate is the Monacor SPH-300KE kevlar coned woofer (see attached specs), which seems to be amazingly good - especially for the price. To give it some competition, I put it up against the best ScanSpeak 12" sub woofer, and the results are remarkably close! The Scanspeak goes 4hz lower at -3db, and makes do with a smaller cabinet volume. But the curves are identical down to 40hz, and both even have the same sensitivity (please see attachments). Phase angle plot is also very close. Now keeping in mind that the Monacor costs 25% of the Scanspeak, the choice seems simple..
But I was starting to wonder if these results will transfer to the real world? Yes I know I will never get that completely flat frequency response in a living room, but does the performance from WinISD sim hold up relatively speaking?
I have entered all Thiele parameters from the official datasheets, but could these be misleading for the Monacor, or is it really that good? I am of course hoping that it is.
Would love to hear from experienced WinISD users, and people familiar with the Monacor SPH-300KE..
Attachments
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Perhaps I should try posting this in a German forum, where Monacor is probably more popular 
Even so, if anyone has a good suggestion for nice 12" woofer for this purpose, I would be very interested to hear about it. I haven't yet found any that could beat the simulation results shown above: Completely flat response to 40hz, and -3db at 28hz (for the budget friendly Monacor)..
Even so, if anyone has a good suggestion for nice 12" woofer for this purpose, I would be very interested to hear about it. I haven't yet found any that could beat the simulation results shown above: Completely flat response to 40hz, and -3db at 28hz (for the budget friendly Monacor)..Hi, yes good value !
Discrepancy about Vas here, Vas - 182 ltr - 250 ltr - Monacor SPH-300KE Loudspeaker Measurements and Information So i took the average = 217L
I see you're using an earlier version of WinISD. Here's the link to the latest one that i'm using - http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe
My sim =
Box net int vol = 150L
fb = 22Hz
Vent x 1 = 102mm x 262mm
24db HPF @ 16Hz
*
At only 35W @ 33.5Hz it's at Xmax ! Still, with two in the room, unless you need head banging levels, it might suit you.
Discrepancy about Vas here, Vas - 182 ltr - 250 ltr - Monacor SPH-300KE Loudspeaker Measurements and Information So i took the average = 217L
I see you're using an earlier version of WinISD. Here's the link to the latest one that i'm using - http://www.linearteam.org/download/winisd-07x.exe
My sim =
Box net int vol = 150L
fb = 22Hz
Vent x 1 = 102mm x 262mm
24db HPF @ 16Hz
*
At only 35W @ 33.5Hz it's at Xmax ! Still, with two in the room, unless you need head banging levels, it might suit you.
Attachments
Hello Zero D, thanks for the info!
After installing new version of WinISD, I ran the same sims again, and the results were much the same. Just many more features in this new version - nice.
I have made a comparison of three different "versions" of the SPH-300KE:
1. With parameters from Data sheet (Blue).
2. With the Rutcho.com values (Orange).
3. Using WinISD Auto calculation as mush as possible, according to the Help file (Grey).
The Auto calc actually gave the highest VAS yet: 282L. Some results are attached here..
Basically all three look quite good, but are somewhat different. I would be probably happy with either one, but what concerns me, is that the optimal box volume varies a lot between these three parameter versions: From 110 to 160L!
So "your results may vary" as they say..
I can't see how you got this: "At only 35W @ 33.5Hz it's at Xmax..".
At 50w, ony the WinISD version hits XMax, while the other two still have some travel left. Or perhaps I am doing it wrong..?
The Monacor data sheet and the WinISD auto calc are pretty close, so I wonder if the driver Rutcho.com tested might have been an older model, that was a bit different? I can't find a date for the measurements on his website.
With this kind of uncertainty regarding the TS values, I will have to do my own measurements on the specific units to be used.
After installing new version of WinISD, I ran the same sims again, and the results were much the same. Just many more features in this new version - nice.
I have made a comparison of three different "versions" of the SPH-300KE:
1. With parameters from Data sheet (Blue).
2. With the Rutcho.com values (Orange).
3. Using WinISD Auto calculation as mush as possible, according to the Help file (Grey).
The Auto calc actually gave the highest VAS yet: 282L. Some results are attached here..
Basically all three look quite good, but are somewhat different. I would be probably happy with either one, but what concerns me, is that the optimal box volume varies a lot between these three parameter versions: From 110 to 160L!
So "your results may vary" as they say..
I can't see how you got this: "At only 35W @ 33.5Hz it's at Xmax..".
At 50w, ony the WinISD version hits XMax, while the other two still have some travel left. Or perhaps I am doing it wrong..?
The Monacor data sheet and the WinISD auto calc are pretty close, so I wonder if the driver Rutcho.com tested might have been an older model, that was a bit different? I can't find a date for the measurements on his website.
With this kind of uncertainty regarding the TS values, I will have to do my own measurements on the specific units to be used.
Attachments
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I discovered an interesting www here - https://www.hifi-selbstbau.de/datenbler-mainmenu-40/tieft-mainmenu-57/137-number-one-sph-300ke & via - https://translate.google.com i see that they tested & produced a LOT of useful data on this driver.
Based on that, i decided doing another sim would not be worth it, due to the Large variation in VAS noted between Monacor's specs & hifi-selbstbau's !
So a self test would be advised, but that means paying $ etc to find out !
All the best with your project, whatever you choose to do
Based on that, i decided doing another sim would not be worth it, due to the Large variation in VAS noted between Monacor's specs & hifi-selbstbau's !
So a self test would be advised, but that means paying $ etc to find out !
All the best with your project, whatever you choose to do
Yes very good link to Hifi-Selbstbau there, good find! I had not seen that test before.
They measure two new SPH-300KE drivers, and also compare results to a 10 year old driver of same model. The TS parameters vary a bit, but are quite close for all three drivers. This seems to be the most credible source for correct TS parameters yet, so will work with those. It seems the official datasheet is off by quite a bit on Cms/VAS, and also Mms - and in turn the Fs is more like 27 than 22 Hz.
So in a way, the SPH-300KE was too good to be true, but even with the independently measured parameteres, it still performs very well in a large vented box.
And with a modest (relatively) 120L volume and 27 Hz fb, I get results very close to my original simulation using Monacor Data sheet values - and this with 20L less box volume. So it still seems to be a very good value driver for a vented sub (as Hifi-Selbstbau review also concluded), but it is probably a good idea to measure the actual drives to be used, before building the sub.
Would still like to find some alternatives though, so if anyone knows a good value 12" for a vented sub around 120L, don't be shy - I might also consider a really nice 15"..
They measure two new SPH-300KE drivers, and also compare results to a 10 year old driver of same model. The TS parameters vary a bit, but are quite close for all three drivers. This seems to be the most credible source for correct TS parameters yet, so will work with those. It seems the official datasheet is off by quite a bit on Cms/VAS, and also Mms - and in turn the Fs is more like 27 than 22 Hz.
So in a way, the SPH-300KE was too good to be true, but even with the independently measured parameteres, it still performs very well in a large vented box.
And with a modest (relatively) 120L volume and 27 Hz fb, I get results very close to my original simulation using Monacor Data sheet values - and this with 20L less box volume. So it still seems to be a very good value driver for a vented sub (as Hifi-Selbstbau review also concluded), but it is probably a good idea to measure the actual drives to be used, before building the sub.
Would still like to find some alternatives though, so if anyone knows a good value 12" for a vented sub around 120L, don't be shy
- I might also consider a really nice 15"..- Status
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