Hi All,
I have a pair of Emminence KappaPro 15 LF2's I had to pull from my old scoops when I moved Across the Country, Had to leave a lot of stuff behind and the scoops where just too big to justify taking. So I pulled the drivers, which were actually never used, I had installed them after blowing one of the 15" Black widows originally in the scoops. I know now the BW's were wrong for the scoops, but hey I built them 15 years ago I didn't know so much.
My tops are 4 JBL EON 15P, yes the original 15" powered EON's, outdated now I know, I'd like to replace them with EV ZLX's maybe butthat will be a while and since the move I don't have connections to get gigs yet so not high priority, right Now will be used for personal enjoyment and small parties. I'd like something a little smaller than the old scoops, so I've looked at a lot of the Tapped horn designs.
Some I am considering: JBell's SS15, ScreamersUSA's FuryBox (started a sketchup model since there arent any real plans, looks complicated, I could build it for sure, but I'd rather have the simplest proven design possible), also looked at the Cubo 15, I tried to Email for the Imperial plans but alas it was undeliverable. Right Now I"m leaning towards the SS15, only 1 sheet per cab, looks pretty simple to build. I'd rather have it built out of 3/4" though.
Any other suggestions? my goals? well it looks to me from the datasheet the drivers I have arent much use below 38Hz, I'd like to see 40Hz-100Hz reasonably flat, with as much SPL as possible. I have a mackie M3000 to drive them with which is rated 3000W bridged mono into 4 Ohms, or stereo 600W into 8 Ohms. I play live electronic Dance Music and also work with DJs playing the same kind of music, mostly Drum n Bass, breakbeats, and some techno, but also lots of the current Bass Music (dubstep,etc..). I realize 18's would probably be better, or LAB horns, but for now I'd like to use what I got. I've got some handles, wheels, and corner brackets so it would just be cost of PLY and Paint.
I have an Astro van so size is not a huge concern, but moveable by one man (ME) would be great. I could Hump those scoops around by myself but in reality it probably wasn't good for my back....
Again, Open to all suggestions here, I think I have given enough info but I'll be happy to provide any additional info.
Construction difficulty isn't much of a concern I've built a lot of stuff over the years including all my racks and studio furniture, the scoops (Fane Clone from dancetech.com).
Thanks,
Nathan
I have a pair of Emminence KappaPro 15 LF2's I had to pull from my old scoops when I moved Across the Country, Had to leave a lot of stuff behind and the scoops where just too big to justify taking. So I pulled the drivers, which were actually never used, I had installed them after blowing one of the 15" Black widows originally in the scoops. I know now the BW's were wrong for the scoops, but hey I built them 15 years ago I didn't know so much.
My tops are 4 JBL EON 15P, yes the original 15" powered EON's, outdated now I know, I'd like to replace them with EV ZLX's maybe butthat will be a while and since the move I don't have connections to get gigs yet so not high priority, right Now will be used for personal enjoyment and small parties. I'd like something a little smaller than the old scoops, so I've looked at a lot of the Tapped horn designs.
Some I am considering: JBell's SS15, ScreamersUSA's FuryBox (started a sketchup model since there arent any real plans, looks complicated, I could build it for sure, but I'd rather have the simplest proven design possible), also looked at the Cubo 15, I tried to Email for the Imperial plans but alas it was undeliverable. Right Now I"m leaning towards the SS15, only 1 sheet per cab, looks pretty simple to build. I'd rather have it built out of 3/4" though.
Any other suggestions? my goals? well it looks to me from the datasheet the drivers I have arent much use below 38Hz, I'd like to see 40Hz-100Hz reasonably flat, with as much SPL as possible. I have a mackie M3000 to drive them with which is rated 3000W bridged mono into 4 Ohms, or stereo 600W into 8 Ohms. I play live electronic Dance Music and also work with DJs playing the same kind of music, mostly Drum n Bass, breakbeats, and some techno, but also lots of the current Bass Music (dubstep,etc..). I realize 18's would probably be better, or LAB horns, but for now I'd like to use what I got. I've got some handles, wheels, and corner brackets so it would just be cost of PLY and Paint.
I have an Astro van so size is not a huge concern, but moveable by one man (ME) would be great. I could Hump those scoops around by myself but in reality it probably wasn't good for my back....
Again, Open to all suggestions here, I think I have given enough info but I'll be happy to provide any additional info.
Construction difficulty isn't much of a concern I've built a lot of stuff over the years including all my racks and studio furniture, the scoops (Fane Clone from dancetech.com).
Thanks,
Nathan
You start by choosing your design goals and corresponding tradeoffs, e.g.
1. How low do you want your design to go? Given the rated Xmax for these drivers, I wouldn't aim for lower than a 42 Hz tune.
2. What type of alignment? Vented? Bandpass? FLH? RLH? TH? Each of these alignments has their plusses and minuses. For example, vented will likely give you the smallest box for a given F3, but won't be as efficient as the other alignments. FLH is the exact opposite. THs strike a decent compromise, but not everyone likes how they sound. Ditto for BP designs, which tend to be smaller than THs, but subject to the same compromises as vented designs.
I was figuring on some horn design for efficiency, FLH I know sounds good, not sure I've ever heard a TH box honestly. Not a fan of band pass though my only experience with those is in car systems.
So FLH OR TH. Tuned T 42 Hz.
I've downloaded hornresp, but no idea how to start with it other than putting in driver specs.
Thanks Brian.
So FLH OR TH. Tuned T 42 Hz.
I've downloaded hornresp, but no idea how to start with it other than putting in driver specs.
Thanks Brian.
Are you planning on building up your rig (apart from maybe upgrading the tops) with more subs in the future, or are you looking to stick with 2 subs you could build? The Kappa 15lf2s are decent woofers, but as I'm sure you're aware they aren't great for building subs. Especially if you do plan getting more serious about your rig later, they could put you in the painful position of having to either buy more kappa lf2 drivers that are sub-par for subwoofer duty or scrapping your existing subs and starting over with better ones.
If you play bass edm like I do, you'll definitely want to think about the bass extension. A low corner of 40hz is a good goal. For a mobile setup of your size going out of the way to get a lower corner than that might not be worth the compromises necessary. The xmax of those kappas makes means going any lower seriously limits your output levels.
There are a lot of great points about the SS15. It's a great size and a good solid all-round build, but it's response begins drops like a rock below 55hz. You risk losing a lot of lower bass content in electronic music, which is not ideal. However, above 50hz it is a shockingly loud cabinet, especially compared to ported boxes. Depending on what kind of audience you play to, sometimes having subs that are loud even if they aren't particularly low isn't such a bad choice to make.
There is a reason I might recommend you build them though. Take a look at this. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge-152.html#post3028901
If you build a collapsible extension, you can drop them even lower while getting louder at the same time. In your situation this is what I would be seriously considering. For most dance music it's low enough (especially compared to el cheapo mobile DJ subs). You'll also be able to fit a small pack space and get big sound.
Another already documented option is jbell's Stadiumhorn. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns.html
Pros: It goes plenty low
It is much more sensitive than a ported box with the same speaker and tuning could be
Cons:It's very large. About 2.5x the size of SS15
You'll be limited on output because of your small xmax
Per jbell's recomendation with a 38hz LR48 hipass you can still get some impressive output before hitting your excursion limits.
However a group of 4 of them, if you decided to upgrade, would be some serious bass. Or, if you don't play events where you need to get LOUD, 2 could be more than plenty.
Those are just the existing designs I know about that might work. Cubo could be a decent option but I don't know much about it. Same goes for the furybox.
Ultimately nothing really wrong with building subs with these drivers, but if you really want to prioritize long-term goals and scalability, nothing beats selling off the kappas and using the money to buy a serious subwoofer like a B&C 18TBX100 and putting it in a TH18 or Keystone cab.
If you play bass edm like I do, you'll definitely want to think about the bass extension. A low corner of 40hz is a good goal. For a mobile setup of your size going out of the way to get a lower corner than that might not be worth the compromises necessary. The xmax of those kappas makes means going any lower seriously limits your output levels.
There are a lot of great points about the SS15. It's a great size and a good solid all-round build, but it's response begins drops like a rock below 55hz. You risk losing a lot of lower bass content in electronic music, which is not ideal. However, above 50hz it is a shockingly loud cabinet, especially compared to ported boxes. Depending on what kind of audience you play to, sometimes having subs that are loud even if they aren't particularly low isn't such a bad choice to make.
There is a reason I might recommend you build them though. Take a look at this. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/170771-single-sheet-th-challenge-152.html#post3028901
If you build a collapsible extension, you can drop them even lower while getting louder at the same time. In your situation this is what I would be seriously considering. For most dance music it's low enough (especially compared to el cheapo mobile DJ subs). You'll also be able to fit a small pack space and get big sound.
Another already documented option is jbell's Stadiumhorn. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/127908-jbells-set-four-tapped-horns.html
Pros: It goes plenty low
It is much more sensitive than a ported box with the same speaker and tuning could be
Cons:It's very large. About 2.5x the size of SS15
You'll be limited on output because of your small xmax
Per jbell's recomendation with a 38hz LR48 hipass you can still get some impressive output before hitting your excursion limits.
However a group of 4 of them, if you decided to upgrade, would be some serious bass. Or, if you don't play events where you need to get LOUD, 2 could be more than plenty.
Those are just the existing designs I know about that might work. Cubo could be a decent option but I don't know much about it. Same goes for the furybox.
Ultimately nothing really wrong with building subs with these drivers, but if you really want to prioritize long-term goals and scalability, nothing beats selling off the kappas and using the money to buy a serious subwoofer like a B&C 18TBX100 and putting it in a TH18 or Keystone cab.
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Thanks for your thoughts. I read the whole stadium horn thread. Those look like fantastic boxes but a bit on the heavy side. There are a number of times in that thread and others where Jbell praises the furybox design. Sadly the original website is no more more could I find it on the way back machine so there are just a couple drawings in a thread. I honestly think I might just bang up a pair of ss15. 1/2" ply is fairly cheap, and the build could be done, sans paint in a weekend easy. If I like I can add 2 more and maybe the extensions, if not I'll just sell them.
Expanding the rig is of course a long term goal but as I have relocated and have no paying gigs yet that is not a super high priority. In the meantime I will prob ably be playing mostly crowds of maybe 200-300 max, indoors.
Had I known I was going to move and leave the scoops behind, having never used them with the new kappas, I'd have gotten 18's instead. Oh well. Compact works for me right now too.
I may try to come up with a design of my own too, I'm going to play about with hornresp and see what I can come up with.
Still open to other suggestions as well.
Thanks!
The fact that putting together an SS15 costs less than a $40 investment in wood is a big bonus. Definitely try it out. Don't forget to brace the interior panels with scrap wood, especially with 1/2" ply (see picture for example of bracing). I think the output will surprise you. It certainly did for me. I never got around to building a horn extension but if you make one I'd love to hear your impressions. As mentioned, that should get your extension down to a good point and give you a "free" output boost.
You didn't mention what kind of processing you have available, but the hi-pass is going to be important. Signal below about 40hz will eat up your precious little excursion and give you very little sound in exchange on those normal SS15 boxes.
You didn't mention what kind of processing you have available, but the hi-pass is going to be important. Signal below about 40hz will eat up your precious little excursion and give you very little sound in exchange on those normal SS15 boxes.
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http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/x-1.gif
One sheet, plus a 1/4 sheet handy panel = 1 cabinet for two Kappa Pro 15LF-2.
-3dB at 35hz, the PPSL means it is a low distortion design, cross at 150hz or lower.
This design has such low distortion that you will not be able to localize where it is, even with only one (small) subwoofer cabinet. You will want a two-wheeled cart to move it, or a friend to give you a hand. One person can tip it into a van from the cart.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg
This entire PA was moved and stacked by one person.
One sheet, plus a 1/4 sheet handy panel = 1 cabinet for two Kappa Pro 15LF-2.
-3dB at 35hz, the PPSL means it is a low distortion design, cross at 150hz or lower.
This design has such low distortion that you will not be able to localize where it is, even with only one (small) subwoofer cabinet. You will want a two-wheeled cart to move it, or a friend to give you a hand. One person can tip it into a van from the cart.
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/dkleitsch/COE08-3.jpg
This entire PA was moved and stacked by one person.
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For Cubo Imperial see the attachements.
I seem to remember that in a direct test the SS15 had the clearest top end and the Cubo 15 had the best low end. I measured the Cubo 15 indoors with an f10 at 30 Hz, officially it gets a solid 40 Hz and up. If you rather cross above 100 Hz (at 125 Hz there's a lot of kick to the chest), the SS15 has the best performance. The Cubo is more likely to need EQ to get that sounding right.
DJK's design will go the lowest but at the cost of a lot of output compared to either the Cubo or the SS15.
Best regards Johan
I seem to remember that in a direct test the SS15 had the clearest top end and the Cubo 15 had the best low end. I measured the Cubo 15 indoors with an f10 at 30 Hz, officially it gets a solid 40 Hz and up. If you rather cross above 100 Hz (at 125 Hz there's a lot of kick to the chest), the SS15 has the best performance. The Cubo is more likely to need EQ to get that sounding right.
DJK's design will go the lowest but at the cost of a lot of output compared to either the Cubo or the SS15.
Best regards Johan
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I tested the Keystone "as built" with an Eminence 4015LF, but found the exit needed to be reduced for best frequency response using the 15". The plans would be the same, but a plate would be fitted inside the upper portion of the Keystone exit.
If you were going to build Keystones, I'd suggest cutting the baffle to fit the BC18SW115 or BC18TBW100 and then make adapter plates for your 15" to fit over the 18" cutout, that would allow you to upgrade with no further woodwork when you have the $$.
The output difference between the BC 18s and the Eminence is quite substantial.
By the way, the SS15 does not go nearly as low as you indicated you want, and tests indicated it fell well short of the simulated output at high power levels.
Art
That image doesn't look like the original SS15, and there's a definite, visible flaw in the horn expansion for that build
Those test results you're referring to are so far off of predictions that I'd question the tests as well as the build
.
There's another option - building a design that works well with your existing subs AND the ones you plan to replace it with.
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