Hello all,
I THINK I have narrowed down driver selection to 2 models:
18PS100 & 18TBX100
I am planning to build 2 single 18" BR enclosures to be used outdoors at this year's Burning Man for a camp size of about 750sq.ft.
T/S wise - to my novice eyes, it seems that I can build an enclosure for the PS100 tuned at 29hz while the BX100 enclosures I see are tuned quit a bit higher. We want these subs to go as low as possible without compromising more SPL than necessary. The goal would be 30hz as the ideal LFE.
Power wise we are looking at a Crown CE2000 amp to drive both.
Can anyone shed some light for me on this?
I THINK I have narrowed down driver selection to 2 models:
18PS100 & 18TBX100
I am planning to build 2 single 18" BR enclosures to be used outdoors at this year's Burning Man for a camp size of about 750sq.ft.
T/S wise - to my novice eyes, it seems that I can build an enclosure for the PS100 tuned at 29hz while the BX100 enclosures I see are tuned quit a bit higher. We want these subs to go as low as possible without compromising more SPL than necessary. The goal would be 30hz as the ideal LFE.
Power wise we are looking at a Crown CE2000 amp to drive both.
Can anyone shed some light for me on this?
Bennett Prescott has:
https://soundforums.net/threads/12058-B-amp-C-18rbx100
The RBX100 should just about be available now, and appears to have more displacement than the 18TBX100 (for less $$), and quite a bit more than the 18PS100.
The 18PS100 will go a bit (4-5 Hz)lower, require a larger box, but won't go as loud as the other two choices. For what you want to do, louder usually wins.
Art
Can you expand on this a little for me? The cost is approximately 45% higher, if you could explain your reasoning it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you Art,
Bennett informed me that the RBX would not be available for this years Burning Man ( Aug.30) So I am left with the other choices. Per B&C site it looks like the req. tuning is exactly 5hz appart 29 vs 34. If you believe from your experience that the SPL increase using the slightly higher tuning of the TBX is a worthy compromise, I think this is the route I will choose.
Is pack space an issue? A horn (tapped or flh) or bandpass can get you higher SPL levels for the same number of drivers and amps. Just needs lager enclosures.
What kind of music are you playing? 30hz is a really low target for outdoors. Even moving the target to 35 will get you appreciable sensitivity gains, which tends to be the real winner in applications like this.
Also relevant, what tops are you crossing to and at what frequency?
What kind of music are you playing? 30hz is a really low target for outdoors. Even moving the target to 35 will get you appreciable sensitivity gains, which tends to be the real winner in applications like this.
Also relevant, what tops are you crossing to and at what frequency?
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It's just a more capable driver. I bought four B&C 18PS76's a couple years ago. They work well for most of my needs but after experiencing where the rest of the money has gone that could've got better drivers....well....I would've rather splurged once for the nicer drivers. Especially important if you only plan on using a couple boxes. Also look at the keystone sub.
If you want to save money look at PRV audio for their TBX clone. Shoot for a 35-40hz tuning. Getting low and loud requires a lot more cash and space.
Thank you all.
I'll buy once and go with the TBW.
FYI the subwoofers that we have: JBL MP418SP
So that's what I need to beat with this build (hopefully noticeably)
And the subwoofers they wanted to get but were cost prohibitive at the time:electrovoice EKX18sp so if I can get to around this level I think they will be pleased.
The mains are:JBL MP415 M-Pro
I'll buy once and go with the TBW.
FYI the subwoofers that we have: JBL MP418SP
So that's what I need to beat with this build (hopefully noticeably)
And the subwoofers they wanted to get but were cost prohibitive at the time:electrovoice EKX18sp so if I can get to around this level I think they will be pleased.
The mains are:JBL MP415 M-Pro
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/184992-tapped-horn-vs-bass-reflex-case-study.html
I am with Zett and Ernie, TH for outdoors, specifically the Keystone. The 18TBW100 mates well with the Keystone.
I will revisit the Keystone.
I spent a lot of time reading through BM's folded horns, Danley's tapped, some other DIY here and there. I uncovered enough "discussion" on some of the designs to make me want to not experiment. It seemed like there was endless "simulations" making claims, but I struggled to find real world examples that were application specific. I kind of felt like a group of young car guys bought a bunch of parts, added up all the "claimed HP" gains on paper and said, "ya my car has an extra 100hp because I added an air filter and muffler.
All of the above is spoken from ignorance I am just a guy on a forum too, but it left me in a place where I didn't want to end up with a spikey loud passband that made every bass line sound the same.
I was running several tracks through an analyzer and some of the core notes are centered right on 35 with a few sweeps falling off at 30. I don't care if I lose the tail end of a sweep. But I am trying to find a good balance.
With the time I have available I was thinking build 7ft BR tuned at 32hz per B&C's own recommendation. The Keystone is a new design to me so I will see what I can learn on it and try and separate the facts and fiction of it.
I spent a lot of time reading through BM's folded horns, Danley's tapped, some other DIY here and there. I uncovered enough "discussion" on some of the designs to make me want to not experiment. It seemed like there was endless "simulations" making claims, but I struggled to find real world examples that were application specific. I kind of felt like a group of young car guys bought a bunch of parts, added up all the "claimed HP" gains on paper and said, "ya my car has an extra 100hp because I added an air filter and muffler.
All of the above is spoken from ignorance I am just a guy on a forum too, but it left me in a place where I didn't want to end up with a spikey loud passband that made every bass line sound the same.
I was running several tracks through an analyzer and some of the core notes are centered right on 35 with a few sweeps falling off at 30. I don't care if I lose the tail end of a sweep. But I am trying to find a good balance.
With the time I have available I was thinking build 7ft BR tuned at 32hz per B&C's own recommendation. The Keystone is a new design to me so I will see what I can learn on it and try and separate the facts and fiction of it.
Although the 18PS100 & 18TBX100 are great for BR designs, in my opinion their cones are a bit light for a TH design, which is why I did not bring up the Keystone in my reply to your questions.
You won't find any fiction in the Keystone thread, and plenty of real world comparisons:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/185588-keystone-sub-using-18-15-12-inch-speakers.html
I specifically chose the LF corner of the Keystone as a compromise good for most musical genres, giving a good size to output level. One Keystone using the B&C 18TBW100-4 or B&C 18SW115 will equal the output of two 7ft BR tuned at 32Hz (with twice the power), other than level at 30-35 Hz.
If you want similar level to the Keystone down to a lower frequency, Josh Ricci's Othorn and Gjallerhorn would be good choices, but are much larger.
Art
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I will return after 50+ pages of reading with no doubt some more questions for you.
6db is a lot to leave on the table. Almost foolish if I think about it for too long.
The music is going to be all EDM, and to be honest most people will probably be performing some brain experiments and in an...enhanced state.
The feel of the bass plays such a roll and I realize what you feel the most is actually around the 50hz range, but these guys mix a lot of content in the 30's.
I am sure a few of you know where I am with experience just by questions I have asked and are biting your tongues thinking "you really don't want/need to tune that low man...you are thinking about it wrong"
The camp isn't super large, which is why originally, I was thinking sacrifice in SPL to gain LFE with 2 BR boxes would be loud and low (relative) and that getting much louder, but with less extension wasn't going to be a good trade off for this situation and style.
I really appreciate the assistance.
I also can't seem to find 4ohm versions in stock, only 8ohms.
Hopefully, I will read the thread and find some real word inputs from someone who has used them with similar material for similar bass heads.
We all have such different expectations and taste that low enough isn't a constant and loud enough isn't a constant. Hell, I have been listening to others' idea of "good sounding" and wanted to cringe. I remember years ago I had finished an install in a customer's car using Focal's 33W woofers (one of my favorite), and the older Utopia drivers. The car was dialed in so well it was one of those installs where you find yourself just listening to the tracks play through even after you got it dialed in, because it's the reason we all are obsessing in the first place. Long story short....customer dropped a LOT of money for that install, we demo the car... he get's out, rolls his windows down, shuts the doors and goes and stands 30 feet behind the car...he isn't happy with the sound. Perfect case of a salesmen not listening to a customer. We pulled the Focal woofers and dropped in 13W7's we pulled the zapco AB amps and loaded it up with digital monoblocks. Customer walked 30 feet behind his car and just smiled nodding yes. He had a goal, it was his money. It wouldn't be my goal, but it wasn't my money. One of the best sounding systems I put together let down the customer at first. I could go one with an opposite example where a single 10" driver "annoyed" the driver with too much bass. Moral of the story, salesmen are...wait that's not the moral.
Make sure we understand one anothers goals before we give advice.
So hopefully I have laid out my goals a bit clearer than when I started.
If my goals are unrealistic (it's a common theme for me with life in general
that's ok.
Ok, thanks again. I need to go read and not type.
6db is a lot to leave on the table. Almost foolish if I think about it for too long.
The music is going to be all EDM, and to be honest most people will probably be performing some brain experiments and in an...enhanced state.
The feel of the bass plays such a roll and I realize what you feel the most is actually around the 50hz range, but these guys mix a lot of content in the 30's.
I am sure a few of you know where I am with experience just by questions I have asked and are biting your tongues thinking "you really don't want/need to tune that low man...you are thinking about it wrong"
The camp isn't super large, which is why originally, I was thinking sacrifice in SPL to gain LFE with 2 BR boxes would be loud and low (relative) and that getting much louder, but with less extension wasn't going to be a good trade off for this situation and style.
I really appreciate the assistance.
I also can't seem to find 4ohm versions in stock, only 8ohms.
Hopefully, I will read the thread and find some real word inputs from someone who has used them with similar material for similar bass heads.
We all have such different expectations and taste that low enough isn't a constant and loud enough isn't a constant. Hell, I have been listening to others' idea of "good sounding" and wanted to cringe. I remember years ago I had finished an install in a customer's car using Focal's 33W woofers (one of my favorite), and the older Utopia drivers. The car was dialed in so well it was one of those installs where you find yourself just listening to the tracks play through even after you got it dialed in, because it's the reason we all are obsessing in the first place. Long story short....customer dropped a LOT of money for that install, we demo the car... he get's out, rolls his windows down, shuts the doors and goes and stands 30 feet behind the car...he isn't happy with the sound. Perfect case of a salesmen not listening to a customer. We pulled the Focal woofers and dropped in 13W7's we pulled the zapco AB amps and loaded it up with digital monoblocks. Customer walked 30 feet behind his car and just smiled nodding yes. He had a goal, it was his money. It wouldn't be my goal, but it wasn't my money. One of the best sounding systems I put together let down the customer at first. I could go one with an opposite example where a single 10" driver "annoyed" the driver with too much bass. Moral of the story, salesmen are...wait that's not the moral.
Make sure we understand one anothers goals before we give advice.
So hopefully I have laid out my goals a bit clearer than when I started.
If my goals are unrealistic (it's a common theme for me with life in general
that's ok. Ok, thanks again. I need to go read and not type.
FWIW, my POC4 TH was designed around an 18TBX100, because that's what this particular client was using in his other bass horns. More information about it here: - The Subwoofer DIY Page v1.1 - Projects : "Proof of Concept #3"
The box for this TH is quite large, but this is aimed at a semi-permanent install in a club, so...
During high SPL testing, the box was giving up before the driver (it was starting to walk, hence the temporary "rope" base in the image at the link above). The final version of the box will be modified to take this into consideration (oh, and the builder did take a few "short cuts" with this build too, LOL).
Listening to Oliver Heldens' "Pikachu" with its 32Hz tones on this TH at high SPL (tested as seen in the image) was a visceral experience, and the plan is to build three more to meet the club's needs for both output and reliability. I recommended that the first party they have with all four THs firing be called "Structural Adjustment"...
Powerplant for testing was one leg of a Behringer iNuke 6000DSP.
A quick'n'dirty FR test suggests a response that's almost dead-flat between 40 Hz and 100 Hz and it's not too badly behaved above that either, all the way to 200 Hz.
I know I need to do some linearity tests with it, and test for its true efficiency as well, but finding the time to do so is tough these days. And moving around a 17 cu.ft. box that's not really designed to be moved isn't that easy
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Brian, thanks for that reply. That helps with perspective a great deal for me.
Do you think the room gain had a lot to do with the presence and output at the 32Hz? While this install is going to be inside the belly of a fish
it will be essentially outdoors.I have dreamt up some crazy untested concepts to even include a larger makeshift "wall" at the back of the dance floor to give something for waves to reflect off of. How many of you just rolled your eyes?
Do you think the room gain had a lot to do with the presence and output at the 32Hz? While this install is going to be inside the belly of a fish
I'd say room gain definitely had an impact. This TH design is about 10dB down by the time it hits 30 Hz, according to my quick'n'dirty FR test. Unfortunately I did not measure the impact of room gain on the FR. OTOH, the TH was tested in the center of the room as pictured. Note that Fb for this design is around 32~33 Hz, so it can be EQ'd flat to that point.
LOL - I wouldn't bother. "Outdoor bass" (i.e. not room effects) always sounds better to me, even if it doesn't get down too low. Room gain is nice, but the room tends to screw up the FR too.
Note that theoretically the TBW100 can produce more output, and with a smaller box size. You'll have to provide quite a bit more power to achieve it however.
What inputs are you using? That keystone sim doesn't look quite right. This is what I have. I'll have to find the post but it looks a lot more like what art measures I think.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...g-18-15-12-inch-speakers-keystone-br-subs.png
Orange trace being the relevant one.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...g-18-15-12-inch-speakers-keystone-br-subs.png
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...g-18-15-12-inch-speakers-keystone-br-subs.png
Orange trace being the relevant one.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...g-18-15-12-inch-speakers-keystone-br-subs.png
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