Let's go world record size.
You can check my math, but 10 meters in length by 57 cm diameter is 2550 liters, no?
OP's combined subwoofer size is probably less than 1000 liters and would be capable of only a fraction of the output of this world record pipe.
My "money no object" recommendation from the beginning was IIRC at least 16 and maybe 32 high excursion 18 inch drivers in suitable cabs (suitable meaning as large as possible, ideally at least 20 cubic feet each). The data-bass ported box for the 18 inch RE XXX was 34.5 cu ft and even that was a bit undersized for the driver IMO. So calculate the size of the boxes for my recommended 16 - 32 drivers and let me know if it's bigger than the 2550 liter world record pipe size.
(To be clear, I know very well there are larger pipes than this one, but this one is the record holder in the triple categories of oldest, heaviest and largest.)
Lot's of great info here in the last several hours. I have an out of town meeting this evening. I'll respond when I return home.
Bach On
Bach On
He sounded pretty authoritative on the subject of his church organs. I just posted his remarks as faithfully as I could, and I asked his permission to do so.
All this endless arm-chair chatter. Let's see the mic results.
Mark - I wouldn't for a second doubt you could make the horsepower; just that Artisan tech was clearly skeptical for usual churches in light of his clearly extensive experience. I forgot to mention that we also chatted about the Halloween Bash at Metropolitan United in Toronto (see the multi-year thread) which certainly does like to show off the 32-foot pipes for Halloween. Seems he grew up in western NY and would visit the great Cassavant organs in our city. I think he was interested to learn I live close to a fabulous Cassavant tracker.
Ben
What clearly extensive experience? Do you really think he knows anything at all about the latest high excursion drivers or enclosure design? This stuff has nothing at all to do with his job and I can almost guarantee he has no clue at all.
"All this endless arm-chair chatter" is based on a lot of experience and knowledge of theory. All the people you accuse are fully capable of designing such a system and have proven themselves technically capable over and over in this discussion and others. On the other hand you have been struggling every step of the way to keep up with the discussion and have proven pretty clearly at every single step that you don't understand what's going on. I'd really like to discuss this at a technical level with you but it's hard if you don't understand the concepts, the theory, the equipment and audio in general. The fact that you won't directly address me or anything I say (except with indirect insults like "arm chair chatter") makes it difficult too.
Thanks for the heads up.
I spent an hour or so checking what's going on.
Not so simple actually.
I did renew it February 1st 2016.
Just had a discussion with the old provider.
The new provider opens up at 08:30 tomorrow morning.
There will be a polite conversation asking why for my website is down!
A bourdon stop is usually constructed from wood. The "pipes" are rectangular boxes.
The largest ones are pretty stout. 1 1/2 inches wall thickness. And on the largest scaled stops 2 inches wall thickness.
I have seen ones that a grown man could slide into.
As for your quotes I an happy to see you looked a bit.
Largest and such claims are pretty tough to make categorical statements of.
But the largest scaled pipes I know of are in the Atlantic City Organ.
There is a pic of a 32 foot rank with a gentleman standing on the far left.
These are most likely principals or diapasons.
The gent sitting in the end of a pipe is at the sounding end of a reed pipe. The wood part is the resonator.
And the gent working on the speaking end of the pipe is indeed working on a 32 foot bourdon.
10Hz - 16Hz Glitches etc
@ Bach On
10Hz - 16Hz Glitches
I was wondering further about them, & the "possible" causes, so i experimented with different software. I created a 8Hz audio waveform & then resampled it up to 16Hz, then i created a 32Hz audio waveform & then resampled it down to 16Hz. I did this a number of times with various different waveform/file lengths, & compared them to the PERFECT original waveforms i created.
Here's just one example of what "can" happen when resampling like that, WITHOUT cleaning up the intial parts of the waveform, by simply editing the waveform.
Now, i am NOT saying that Artisan was lazy etc & just sampled for eg, a 32Hz organ sample, & then resampled it down in software.
Only posting this for further investigation/analsis etc.
*
Here's a 16Hz test WAV waveform i made for you. It's only short to save on uploading bandwith & file size restrictions etc. It's meant to be played as a LOOP in for eg Audacity, or any other audio player/software. Here is the download link to Audacity http://audacity.sourceforge.net BUT, if your computers soundcard output circuits roll off below for eg 20Hz, don't expect the same results as if they were flat. Also you are already aware of the other "possible" LF limitations in the Whole chain, from source to speaker/s. So bear those in mind too. It's just something useful you can have on hand for testing with an audio player and/or software.
I had to change the file name from Zero D 16Hz for Bach On.wav to Zero D 16Hz for Bach On.txt to upload it here. It should still play just fine as is, but right click on it & change to .wav
*
Artisan output levels etc !
What is the maximum audio Safe output level ? Have you set the ANTI_CLIP up, or correctly ? If not that "could" cause glitches etc !
*
Some might be interested i downloading one or more demos, & analyising waveforms.
@ Bach On
10Hz - 16Hz Glitches
I was wondering further about them, & the "possible" causes, so i experimented with different software. I created a 8Hz audio waveform & then resampled it up to 16Hz, then i created a 32Hz audio waveform & then resampled it down to 16Hz. I did this a number of times with various different waveform/file lengths, & compared them to the PERFECT original waveforms i created.
Here's just one example of what "can" happen when resampling like that, WITHOUT cleaning up the intial parts of the waveform, by simply editing the waveform.
Now, i am NOT saying that Artisan was lazy etc & just sampled for eg, a 32Hz organ sample, & then resampled it down in software.
Only posting this for further investigation/analsis etc.
*
Here's a 16Hz test WAV waveform i made for you. It's only short to save on uploading bandwith & file size restrictions etc. It's meant to be played as a LOOP in for eg Audacity, or any other audio player/software. Here is the download link to Audacity http://audacity.sourceforge.net BUT, if your computers soundcard output circuits roll off below for eg 20Hz, don't expect the same results as if they were flat. Also you are already aware of the other "possible" LF limitations in the Whole chain, from source to speaker/s. So bear those in mind too. It's just something useful you can have on hand for testing with an audio player and/or software.
I had to change the file name from Zero D 16Hz for Bach On.wav to Zero D 16Hz for Bach On.txt to upload it here. It should still play just fine as is, but right click on it & change to .wav
*
Artisan output levels etc !
What is the maximum audio Safe output level ? Have you set the ANTI_CLIP up, or correctly ? If not that "could" cause glitches etc !
*
Some might be interested i downloading one or more demos, & analyising waveforms.
Attachments
The Artisan Tech who installed the system for us used to do their sampling. He said they are done inside the pipe chamber. They use two microphones. Each note in the rank is recorded for roughly 12 seconds. Then the process is repeated for that rank in case there is a glitch in the recording.
But he revealed to me that sometimes the mikes are not moved so each pipe is an equal distance from the mikes. It really should be. Room noise and room ambience can introduce spurious sounds if the distance between the pipes and mikes is higher. I heard some of this in some notes within a few ranks and mentioned it to him. He said that sometimes it is hard to find a spot to mount the mikes so they are an equal distance from some pipes.
He did not tell me about any cleaning or doctoring on the sounds. Even if they do so, they might not want to tell us.
BO
While doing some reading on the Stereo Integrity HT18 we bought, I ran across this speaker on their site.
HS24 24″ Subwoofer | Stereo Integrity
They have now added another 24 inch driver.
BHS-24 24″ Subwoofer | Stereo Integrity
Our Artisan tech did not mention a subwoofer called the HouseWrecker.
BO
Your experience with the iNuke amps is helpful. Thanks for sharing it.
I absolutely understand that electrical load will need to be addressed if we try to get more power from the iNuke. The chairman of our Trustees is on Spring Break this week with his grandchildren. He knows a lot about the work that has been done in the past several years.
There is an electrician who lives about a block from the church. I'll try to contact him and get an evaluation and an estimate from him on getting another outlet into the amp closet that is on a separate breaker.
Bach On
The person I spoke with just sort of grabbed the name "House Wrecker" and Hagerstown (where I will be passing through in a few days) out of the air as his best guess at the name and place. Might be confusion with Moller, as Art guesses since Moller is/was famous for big theatre organs.
Now those are serious woofers. Might pump out enough subsonic stuff to be audible.
Ugly history in concert hall acoustic design when there is a conflict between delivering good sound balance to the stage versus to the audience. So important to ensure congregation sound is right balance. Get an assistant organist to help you.
Do you want to record samples from inside the closet? When we talked of "good spot" in the church, I should have realized the reference might not be what gets to the hall but what is playing in the closet.*
But that also complicates how to compare the mic pick-up to the original electric signal from the Artisan since the electric signal is not meant to be identical to the resulting sound in the hall. Ummmm, interesting.
Now, just to speculate, the Artisan recordings if played on headphones might seem very bright because the low notes would readily pass out of the closet, but the high notes would be diminished more, thus presenting a proper balance in the hall. And on the third hand, since you are interested only in low notes for your particular application. Just sayin'.
In any case, you still need to (1) establish what signals you have to handle and (2) to confirm the integrity of your music chain. So, back to RTA for the Artisan's lowest note and comparing that to point(s) downstream... and maybe to a mic in the speaker closet.
Ben
*Hey, that would really screw up churches where the speakers are not in a closet, unlike in your case. Ummmmmmmm.
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Ben,
Some of the newer Allen Organs have a feature that allows you to program room ambiance into their samples. These organs use sampling rather than synthesis of the pipe sounds. I do not know for sure, but I suspect this is some sort of electronic process applied to the samples as they play.
My logic is this. Pipes, in and of themselves, do not add any room ambiance. So setting your mikes up in the pipe chamber may provide a truer representation of the pipes than recording the pipes from where the congregation sits.
Our Sanctuary does not have much room decay or echo. There is carpet on some of the floors. And also we have cushions on all the pews. That compares with some buildings that have lots of echo. Allen's design attempts to add reverb and or remove echo to the pipe sounds to give quiet rooms like ours an artificial reverb. Many sound cards hAave a similar feature. You can set it for a bathroom, a living room, a concert hall, an arena, and so forth. Tastes vary, but I'm not a big fan of this.
Remember that we are playing real pipes and digital samples together. We cannot add this electronic style of reverb to the real pipes. So adding them to the samples would cause some sounds to have reverb while others didn't have this effect. I prefer the actual sounds to be just the pipes - up close. Then let the room add whatever it has to offer.
Mark Anderson, our Artisan rep, provided us with samples from at least two or three organs. Some have more room ambiance than others. Currently, I believe most of the ones we are using came from an Aolean Skinner organ. They were, so he said, recorded in the pipe chamber.
Again, that's just my take on things.
Bach On
.
Some of the newer Allen Organs have a feature that allows you to program room ambiance into their samples. These organs use sampling rather than synthesis of the pipe sounds. I do not know for sure, but I suspect this is some sort of electronic process applied to the samples as they play.
My logic is this. Pipes, in and of themselves, do not add any room ambiance. So setting your mikes up in the pipe chamber may provide a truer representation of the pipes than recording the pipes from where the congregation sits.
Our Sanctuary does not have much room decay or echo. There is carpet on some of the floors. And also we have cushions on all the pews. That compares with some buildings that have lots of echo. Allen's design attempts to add reverb and or remove echo to the pipe sounds to give quiet rooms like ours an artificial reverb. Many sound cards hAave a similar feature. You can set it for a bathroom, a living room, a concert hall, an arena, and so forth. Tastes vary, but I'm not a big fan of this.
Remember that we are playing real pipes and digital samples together. We cannot add this electronic style of reverb to the real pipes. So adding them to the samples would cause some sounds to have reverb while others didn't have this effect. I prefer the actual sounds to be just the pipes - up close. Then let the room add whatever it has to offer.
Mark Anderson, our Artisan rep, provided us with samples from at least two or three organs. Some have more room ambiance than others. Currently, I believe most of the ones we are using came from an Aolean Skinner organ. They were, so he said, recorded in the pipe chamber.
Again, that's just my take on things.
Bach On
.
Art,
Lots of good info here. I see asterisks, however, but no waves. Did the Admin remove these waves?
I've had another thought on some of those sounds that appeared in the REW file I posted.
The pipes on a real pipe organ are set with their bottom (called the toe) sitting in a wind chest. Some older organs have a mechanical valve that opens and closes for each pipe. Modern organs often use an electrical valave for this task.
When the valve opens, air from the windchest rushes up into the pipe. SOME pipes make a non-musical noise as the pipe first starts to produce it's sound. Allen organs used to try to duplicate this sound and called it "Chiff".
I believe the 32 foot pedal ranks I was measuring were Contra Bourdon samples. A Bourdon is a flute sound. I'm wondering if some of that very low (around 10 Hz.) sound could be some of this "Chiff" that some flute pipes make just as they start to sound? Diapason or Principal pipes make less of this initial noise. It might be interesting to measure some different samples and see if those extra sounds are present in them too.
One mistake I made in doing these measurements was that I had my MIDI file play up and down the chromatic scale for the bottom octave. I should have only measured one note at a time. I'll try to correct that.
Thanks to everyone for your assistance, suggestions and for what some call a "we spirit".
Bach On
I would be quite interested if you could upload a 16 hz note sample from the demos, or something that contains the 16 hz note sample.
The HS24 has been on the market for 2 years now. It's got a weak motor and needs a tremendously large box size to perform well, especially if you go ported.
The BHS is much newer, released in the last few months. It's got a much stronger motor so it is happier in smaller boxes but it is extremely expensive.
The way you want to do it is usually the preferred method. If you take samples that have gobs of room effects included and then play that back in a room that has it's own strong room signature it's going to end up being an overbloated mess of room effects, sampled room effects superimposed over real room effects.
If your room is too dry you might want a more spicy sample with a bit of room effect but it's probably best to start with a dry sample and see what your room does with it.
IMO guessing at the source of the measured spikes below 10 hz is secondary and way down the list compared to guessing where the missing higher frequency harmonics went.
The higher frequency harmonics are usually very prominent and often louder than the fundamental. All pipes have harmonics. Where are they in the measured response?
This is why I desperately want a demo sample of the 16 hz note. I can analyze that and find out what it's SUPPOSED to look like. If it's a sample recorded a few feet from the actual pipe and it's not processed or severely bandwidth limited there should be a whole series of harmonics, very likely spiking higher than the fundamental (which by the way should be at 16 hz).
The HS24 was $1599, when I first looked at it, which was way beyond what our budget would allow. They have since marked it down to closer to $1,050.
That BHS has power handling that is listed as being on the order of 4,000 watts RMS. The driver alone weighs 150 pounds. But it is definitely beyond what our budget would allow.
Bach On
P.S. Yes. I'm satisfied that using samples without recorded room effects is probably best for us.
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