What he posted was definitely an electrical signal but it's not in any way clear that it's what you think it is.
There's no big spike at 16 hz, no harmonics at all, and a lot of huge spikes below 16 hz.
This MIGHT be the 16 hz note sample or it might not be. Either way it's definitely not what a 16 hz pipe organ note is supposed to look like and there's no way the blower noise should be higher in level than the fundamental or the (non existent) harmonics so I'm not sure why you insist that this measurement is accurate. It might be, it might not.
Ben,f
The MIDI thingy is just a MIDI sequencer that sends NOTE ON/OFF signals to the organ. The organ provides all the sounds. No need to be concerned.
BO
Anthony. If you had an email for Ron that explained exactly what it was, would that be enough information to make a claim as to what it is?
Do you mean an email FROM Ron explaining what he thought he measured?
That wouldn't prove much of anything, as he admitted that he's not that familiar with REW and this is his first attempt at measuring the system. If there was a big spike at 16 hz and all kinds of harmonics like you would EXPECT to see, I would then assume the measurement was a 16 hz pipe organ note. As it is all signs point to - maybe, maybe not.
This is why I talked about the story about trying to help from a remote location. You have absolutely no idea what was measured or how it was done because you were not there. All the emails in the world can't clear much up, unless of course there's video of exactly what happened.
It's entirely possible that he THOUGHT he was doing everything right but plugged the LINE IN into the headphone jack (or some similar mistake) and measured only noise. Not white noise, but some kind of noise. You can't say that some such mistake is completely impossible and an email doesn't negate the fact that it's not impossible either.
That wouldn't prove much of anything, as he admitted that he's not that familiar with REW and this is his first attempt at measuring the system. If there was a big spike at 16 hz and all kinds of harmonics like you would EXPECT to see, I would then assume the measurement was a 16 hz pipe organ note. As it is all signs point to - maybe, maybe not.
This is why I talked about the story about trying to help from a remote location. You have absolutely no idea what was measured or how it was done because you were not there. All the emails in the world can't clear much up, unless of course there's video of exactly what happened.
It's entirely possible that he THOUGHT he was doing everything right but plugged the LINE IN into the headphone jack (or some similar mistake) and measured only noise. Not white noise, but some kind of noise. You can't say that some such mistake is completely impossible and an email doesn't negate the fact that it's not impossible either.
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Mark -
So, is the Artisan box the one and only tone generator for Ron's organ or is it a separate appliance that outputs processed recordings of organ keys? It doesn't synthesize notes (say, like a Moog) but just plays recordings? Maybe a good way, but sounds primitive.
Thanks for explaining what M I D I stands for. I really have come across those initials before 🙂. i just had no complete idea what an Artisan is. (And still do.)
BTW, just how does the wind noise get into the electric signal? Does the Artisan simulate wind noise when no key is pressed?
Ben
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Where are the harmonics? Can you explain why this doesn't look like a pipe organ note?
This the the same thing you did when you measured the SI 18 MMS at almost 1 kg. You were so sure of yourself, you gave reasons why you thought it should be almost 1 kg, and you were wrong.
There's no huge 16 hz spike, no harmonics, and no way the blower noise should be stronger than the fundamental note or the harmonics.
But apparently you have an email or something so it has to be right.
This sampling has been discussed about a thousand times already.
A real organ note is played and recorded with a real mic in a real venue.
That recording is made into a sample.
A sample is made for each organ note.
The samples are loaded into a piece of hardware.
OP buys this commercial product and hooks it up in his system.
When a note is played on OP's keyboard the hardware plays back the sample corresponding to that note.
If there was blower noise in the recorded sample it will be played back on OP's system.
There is no simulation of anything, it's a playback of a recording essentially.
This kind of sampling and playback is VERY common, it's included on cheap keyboards and kid's stuffed animals and millions of other products.
Guys,
I went to the church last night. I did no measurements of voltage or frequencies. My goal was simply to get the new Behringer amp working AND to practice music for Easter Sunday.
I did try to program the DSP in the amp using the suggestions JAG posted.
There are clipping lights on the amp. I found that turning the gain control up much over half-way caused one of the clipping lights to light up when I was playing several pedal sounds together. I did experiment with the level settings in the sound generator's configuration file. This allows me to adjust the relative volume level of each organ rank.
I received the Samson bump box yesterday. It works in one of two directions. You can go from unbalanced to balanced signals OR you can go the other way. The typical unbalanced signal is listed as being a nominal -10dB. The balanced signal is listed as being a nominal +4dB. There are controls that allow adjustment of both the input OR the output level. I did not have the correct patch cable to add this box into the system. I ordered two of them today. I figure they'll get to me sometime this week. At that point I'll try to add it to the mix.
Initial thoughts - my general understanding of clipping is that one (not the only one) of the common causes is an input signal that is too hot (too much "volume") for the amount of amplification being applied to that signal. So clipping seems to hint that input signal is strong enough to produce clipping.
Remember that the output for the pedals from the sound engine includes no signals for the manuals. The signals from the manuals are routed to other outputs. So this doesn't work like a crossover that simply reduces higher sounds for these signals. High frequencies never make it into this signal, so they are not present at all in this particular signal chain.
Both the Crown XLS`1500 and the newer Behringer iNuke 3000DSP have a listed frequency response from 20 to 20,000 Hertz. The Crown is rated to put out 525 watts (maximum) per channel at 4 ohms.The iNuke is rated for 825 watts (maximum) at 4 ohms. Both units have a slightly lower output at continuous power (RMS).
I was running the Crown with the gain at maximum to get sufficient power for enough pedal to balance with the speakers for the manuals. I had not seen the clipping lights show on the Crown amps. But I want to go back and verify this. I honestly don't remember if I ever stood at the amp rack and watched for this while having my MIDI play the organ with a FULL ORGAN setting.
The iNuke gain is at roughly 60% before I see the clipping light flicker on at FULL ORGAN. I WAS using the settings in the DSP. I'm going to turn off the DSP settings and run it flat to see if the LOWPASS filter ON. That unit only had one DSP chip. It has been replaced by Crown by the 1502 - which has a DSP processor for both the Left and the Right channels.
So the 1500 is providing processing ONLY for one of the stereo inputs. The amp ignores anything plugged into the other amp when the internal crossover system is used. This was a flaw in the design. That is indicated by the fact that they no longer manufacture the 1500, but only offer the 1502. The same flaw was in all the models in the original XLS series, like the 1000, 2000 and 2500. Each was replaced by the newer model with the right-hand digital changed to a 2. I might be able to combine the two inputs using some sort of patch cables. Since the active input signal is bi-amped, I can adjust the gain for each output channel independently. This means each speaker is controlled by a separate gain control.
The iNuke has two DSP units, so both outputs from the Artisan sound engine can be utilized. Each signal can be adjusted using the DSP features. Each can be adjusted for the two homemade bass speakers using separate gain controls.
BUT - the amperage of the iNuke is higher than the Crown. Last night I had the circuit breaker for the amps pop. I don't know what other load is on that circuit breaker. But clearly I may be needing more power than it can provide. This will require some attention and research.
It is possible that using the Samson bump box to create a higher signal strength for the input to the Crown XLS1500 may change things. That is a variable I need to explore.
I played the organ for church today. Some of the balance will need work. If anything, I felt that the low bass was a little too strong.
So, I'm afraid it's a mixed bag.
Bach On
I went to the church last night. I did no measurements of voltage or frequencies. My goal was simply to get the new Behringer amp working AND to practice music for Easter Sunday.
I did try to program the DSP in the amp using the suggestions JAG posted.
There are clipping lights on the amp. I found that turning the gain control up much over half-way caused one of the clipping lights to light up when I was playing several pedal sounds together. I did experiment with the level settings in the sound generator's configuration file. This allows me to adjust the relative volume level of each organ rank.
I received the Samson bump box yesterday. It works in one of two directions. You can go from unbalanced to balanced signals OR you can go the other way. The typical unbalanced signal is listed as being a nominal -10dB. The balanced signal is listed as being a nominal +4dB. There are controls that allow adjustment of both the input OR the output level. I did not have the correct patch cable to add this box into the system. I ordered two of them today. I figure they'll get to me sometime this week. At that point I'll try to add it to the mix.
Initial thoughts - my general understanding of clipping is that one (not the only one) of the common causes is an input signal that is too hot (too much "volume") for the amount of amplification being applied to that signal. So clipping seems to hint that input signal is strong enough to produce clipping.
Remember that the output for the pedals from the sound engine includes no signals for the manuals. The signals from the manuals are routed to other outputs. So this doesn't work like a crossover that simply reduces higher sounds for these signals. High frequencies never make it into this signal, so they are not present at all in this particular signal chain.
Both the Crown XLS`1500 and the newer Behringer iNuke 3000DSP have a listed frequency response from 20 to 20,000 Hertz. The Crown is rated to put out 525 watts (maximum) per channel at 4 ohms.The iNuke is rated for 825 watts (maximum) at 4 ohms. Both units have a slightly lower output at continuous power (RMS).
I was running the Crown with the gain at maximum to get sufficient power for enough pedal to balance with the speakers for the manuals. I had not seen the clipping lights show on the Crown amps. But I want to go back and verify this. I honestly don't remember if I ever stood at the amp rack and watched for this while having my MIDI play the organ with a FULL ORGAN setting.
The iNuke gain is at roughly 60% before I see the clipping light flicker on at FULL ORGAN. I WAS using the settings in the DSP. I'm going to turn off the DSP settings and run it flat to see if the LOWPASS filter ON. That unit only had one DSP chip. It has been replaced by Crown by the 1502 - which has a DSP processor for both the Left and the Right channels.
So the 1500 is providing processing ONLY for one of the stereo inputs. The amp ignores anything plugged into the other amp when the internal crossover system is used. This was a flaw in the design. That is indicated by the fact that they no longer manufacture the 1500, but only offer the 1502. The same flaw was in all the models in the original XLS series, like the 1000, 2000 and 2500. Each was replaced by the newer model with the right-hand digital changed to a 2. I might be able to combine the two inputs using some sort of patch cables. Since the active input signal is bi-amped, I can adjust the gain for each output channel independently. This means each speaker is controlled by a separate gain control.
The iNuke has two DSP units, so both outputs from the Artisan sound engine can be utilized. Each signal can be adjusted using the DSP features. Each can be adjusted for the two homemade bass speakers using separate gain controls.
BUT - the amperage of the iNuke is higher than the Crown. Last night I had the circuit breaker for the amps pop. I don't know what other load is on that circuit breaker. But clearly I may be needing more power than it can provide. This will require some attention and research.
It is possible that using the Samson bump box to create a higher signal strength for the input to the Crown XLS1500 may change things. That is a variable I need to explore.
I played the organ for church today. Some of the balance will need work. If anything, I felt that the low bass was a little too strong.
So, I'm afraid it's a mixed bag.
Bach On
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If you can make the inputs clip you don't need the DI box.
The manual says there are "signal lights - -24, -12, -6 db"
and a "limit light - 0 db"
for each channel.
I don't own the amp and haven't seen one running. It appears to have 4 lights on the front panel. Can you explain how it shows the various power levels of -24, -12, -6 and 0 db? Not sure how it's showing 4 levels for two channels when there's only 4 lights, so if you could explain that would help.
Are you sure it's a clip light your are seeing?
Just want to be sure what's going on.
Ben,
Our organ was originally all pipes. But is was a smallish organ with no higher sounds and few very low sounds. I wanted to improve that situation. But I was on a fixed budget.
Originally, we looked into a design made by Walker Technical. They take organ samples from other organs and program the various sounds into chips on a circuit board. It is a good design, but it is very expensive product. Adding the sounds we wanted would have cost us upwards of $60 to 75 thousand. We just didn't have the budget for it.
Someone told me about the Artisan Sound Engine. It uses a computer. The samples are first loaded onto a standard hard disk drive. Then they are loaded into the computer's RAM. They can then playback instantly on demand. One advantage of this approach over the chips is that you can change the individaul samples so you can have different sounds programmed to play on demand.
Our organ now has both pipes and sampled sounds from other pipe organs. Each note is individually sampled and stored onto the hard drive. When loaded, they sound nearly identical to the original pipes that were recorded. Some people now call this a hybrid organ.
I won't go back and try to explain how the organ works. But we have pipes that play some sounds. Other sounds come from the digital sound engine.
Think of it like this. Imagine a small jazz ensemble. Perhaps there is a real trumpet player, a real sax player, a real bass viol player (an upright bass) and a drummer playing a trap set. But instead of a real piano, a digital piano is used. All these instruments are played together by real people. There is a mixture of live sounds and sampled sounds (the piano).
Some digital pianos sound like electric approximations of a real piano. But a few sound much more realistic because the samples are high quality recordings of real pianos.
I'd say the samples in our organ are high quality. We currently have many samples from which to choose. But we can only use 12 at a time. That's because we have to have controls on the organ console to turn the various sounds ON or OFF.
What I've been doing is trying to get the sampled sounds to blend well with the real pipes. I've had good success with the sounds on the manuals. Now my focus has shifted to the pedal sounds. The goal is to blend it all together so the digital sounds and the pipe sounds are indistinguishable from each other.
I can't resist giving one quick organ lesson. Pipe organs have been around since the 1200s AD. There were actually some before that time, Most organs were used for church music. Many of the original pipes used were attempts to create sounds appropriate for the churches. Some organs had pipes named Trumpet, for example. Anyone who tried to compare the trumpet pipes to an actual person playing a real Bb Trumpet would easily say by modern day standards that the pipes weren't even close. At best they sort of reminded people of a real trumpet. But most modern organs continue to offer trumpet pipes built according to the old standards. Even digital electronic organs that use modern sampling try to duplicate the older pipes, rather than using sampled Bb Trumpets. Why? I guess it is just tradition.
Most computers have some sort of modern sound card. These may contain upwards of a 100 different sounds. Almost none of these inexpensive sound cards utilize digital sampling.Some orchestral sounds, like the flute, the oboe and some of the low brass instruments sound VERY similar to a real flute, oboe or low brass instrument in a very narrow range of the instrument. But almost anyone can hear the differences between these sounds and the real thing.
A few more expensive - professional sound cards often do include digital samples of real instruments. But few of these sound cards include samples for the various pipes of a pipe organ. So what we are using is in a completely specialized league.
I do understand that it might make you think of some sort of Rube Goldberg design. But when done right, it provides a very realistic sound that MOST people could not distinguish from the real thing.
Pipes must be made by hand. A full rank of pipes can cost from $10K to $40K, depending on their sound type. Too, they require air lines and controls to make them work well. That adds to the cost. So what we have done is attempt to add to our organ using less money and less space.
It all works seamlessly together. Like a computer, the hard work has been done by the designers. My challenge has been to design the sound system. If we had paid someone to do this, the cost of our system would have been much higher.
I think we've got a good working system. I'm simply trying to get the pedal sounds to sound as good as the sounds in the middle and higher frequencies. We've been able to do all this so far for roughly $32 K. And most of that was for work done on the organ console. That ate up a whopping $26,406 of our total budget. This many real organ pipes would have cost us well over $150 K. And we did not have physical space enough (adjacent to the Sanctuary) to put the pipes and all their required infrastructure.
Hope that clears things up - at least a little.
Bach On
Our organ was originally all pipes. But is was a smallish organ with no higher sounds and few very low sounds. I wanted to improve that situation. But I was on a fixed budget.
Originally, we looked into a design made by Walker Technical. They take organ samples from other organs and program the various sounds into chips on a circuit board. It is a good design, but it is very expensive product. Adding the sounds we wanted would have cost us upwards of $60 to 75 thousand. We just didn't have the budget for it.
Someone told me about the Artisan Sound Engine. It uses a computer. The samples are first loaded onto a standard hard disk drive. Then they are loaded into the computer's RAM. They can then playback instantly on demand. One advantage of this approach over the chips is that you can change the individaul samples so you can have different sounds programmed to play on demand.
Our organ now has both pipes and sampled sounds from other pipe organs. Each note is individually sampled and stored onto the hard drive. When loaded, they sound nearly identical to the original pipes that were recorded. Some people now call this a hybrid organ.
I won't go back and try to explain how the organ works. But we have pipes that play some sounds. Other sounds come from the digital sound engine.
Think of it like this. Imagine a small jazz ensemble. Perhaps there is a real trumpet player, a real sax player, a real bass viol player (an upright bass) and a drummer playing a trap set. But instead of a real piano, a digital piano is used. All these instruments are played together by real people. There is a mixture of live sounds and sampled sounds (the piano).
Some digital pianos sound like electric approximations of a real piano. But a few sound much more realistic because the samples are high quality recordings of real pianos.
I'd say the samples in our organ are high quality. We currently have many samples from which to choose. But we can only use 12 at a time. That's because we have to have controls on the organ console to turn the various sounds ON or OFF.
What I've been doing is trying to get the sampled sounds to blend well with the real pipes. I've had good success with the sounds on the manuals. Now my focus has shifted to the pedal sounds. The goal is to blend it all together so the digital sounds and the pipe sounds are indistinguishable from each other.
I can't resist giving one quick organ lesson. Pipe organs have been around since the 1200s AD. There were actually some before that time, Most organs were used for church music. Many of the original pipes used were attempts to create sounds appropriate for the churches. Some organs had pipes named Trumpet, for example. Anyone who tried to compare the trumpet pipes to an actual person playing a real Bb Trumpet would easily say by modern day standards that the pipes weren't even close. At best they sort of reminded people of a real trumpet. But most modern organs continue to offer trumpet pipes built according to the old standards. Even digital electronic organs that use modern sampling try to duplicate the older pipes, rather than using sampled Bb Trumpets. Why? I guess it is just tradition.
Most computers have some sort of modern sound card. These may contain upwards of a 100 different sounds. Almost none of these inexpensive sound cards utilize digital sampling.Some orchestral sounds, like the flute, the oboe and some of the low brass instruments sound VERY similar to a real flute, oboe or low brass instrument in a very narrow range of the instrument. But almost anyone can hear the differences between these sounds and the real thing.
A few more expensive - professional sound cards often do include digital samples of real instruments. But few of these sound cards include samples for the various pipes of a pipe organ. So what we are using is in a completely specialized league.
I do understand that it might make you think of some sort of Rube Goldberg design. But when done right, it provides a very realistic sound that MOST people could not distinguish from the real thing.
Pipes must be made by hand. A full rank of pipes can cost from $10K to $40K, depending on their sound type. Too, they require air lines and controls to make them work well. That adds to the cost. So what we have done is attempt to add to our organ using less money and less space.
It all works seamlessly together. Like a computer, the hard work has been done by the designers. My challenge has been to design the sound system. If we had paid someone to do this, the cost of our system would have been much higher.
I think we've got a good working system. I'm simply trying to get the pedal sounds to sound as good as the sounds in the middle and higher frequencies. We've been able to do all this so far for roughly $32 K. And most of that was for work done on the organ console. That ate up a whopping $26,406 of our total budget. This many real organ pipes would have cost us well over $150 K. And we did not have physical space enough (adjacent to the Sanctuary) to put the pipes and all their required infrastructure.
Hope that clears things up - at least a little.
Bach On
Just to be really clear - that hpf and boost setting was just an example. I have no idea if that is what your driver needs for protection or not. If you post a link to tb46's design with Hornresp inputs I can give you the settings that will protect your driver (assuming your actual cab tuning is what the sim predicts, since you haven't verified your actual tuning yet).
And about the lights - I just want to make sure it's a clip light you are seeing and not the -24 db signal light flashing. If it's the first light you see it's not a clip light, it's -24 db. Just want to be really sure it's actually a clip light and not just a low power signal light. Not sure what voltage the Artisan outputs or what voltage the Inuke wants to see on the input.
That's a much better pic than the manual shows. The manual pic is black and white and doesn't even show the 4 lights for the right channel at all, which is why I was wondering how they were showing 4 power levels for two channels with just 4 lights. Clearly that pic shows there's 8 lights so I get it now.
Yes, Bach On, please confirm that you are seeing all the yellow lights and the red lights lit up.
Yes, Bach On, please confirm that you are seeing all the yellow lights and the red lights lit up.
Great questions. I see on the specification page (24 in the paper manual) that there is supposed to be an indicator for Signal (per channel) - then it says -24. -12, -6 dB. But I see nothing in the manual that indicates where they are or how to adjust this. I also saw nothing in the software where the option to adjust this is indicated.
The amp has one of those combo input connectors that can accept XLR (balanced) jacks, 1/4 inch TS (unbalanced) jacks and 1/4 inch TRS (balanced) connectors. The specifications page says the balanced inputs operate at 10,000 ohms for the balance connections and 20,000 ohms for the unbalanced connections.
Could it be that the type of connector adjusts the input signal?
On page 24 of the paper manual, the following appears:
"Signal and Limit LEDs display the signal level for each channel. Reduce input gain if the red LIMIT LED lights up continuously."
There is a line pointing to the four LEDs adjacent to the left gain control.
Is it possible that this is like the old VUE meters? Could the lowest three of those LEDS (which are amber/orange - not RED) be signal indicators. And could only the top light be the clipping indicator? I never ran it hot enough to light anything but the bottom indicator LED.
The software has a VUE meter for each channel. It was showing signals well below the clipping indicator - something like -20 dB.
If this set of lights on the front of the amp is just signal strength, then that first light may not be a clipping indicator. Thus, I may not have been getting any clipping. Perhaps only the top LED is the clipping indicator? And maybe it is RED?
More reasons to do some research at the Behringer site forum.
Bach On
Haven't looked at the manual, but Red light being only one and in the last position kind of makes sense!
No, Mark. Only the bottom indicator LED lit. So that answers one of my questions. I never even got close to clipping.
Thanks.
Do you see anything about how to adjust that input signal strength?
BO
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