Hornresp 2 Driver Tapped Horn Woofer Location? Distance? - diyAudio
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Old 24th March 2015, 06:30 AM   #1
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Default Hornresp 2 Driver Tapped Horn Woofer Location? Distance?

Distance as the distance between the woofers and i meant side location

Im confused on how exactly all this is placed out here's a pic

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by Do It Yourself; 24th March 2015 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 24th March 2015, 06:56 AM   #2
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S2 is the midpoint between the drivers. That's the most accurate way to do it in Hornresp. You can sim both drivers individually in Akabak and that's more accurate but in Hornresp it has to be the midpoint between the drivers.
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Old 24th March 2015, 09:32 AM   #3
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With the two drivers seperated like that, you end up with a bit of blurring of the tuning frequency, and, presumably all the harmonics that cause the top-end mush on THs. Might make it easier to cross over.

Chris
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Old 24th March 2015, 11:31 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
With the two drivers seperated like that, you end up with a bit of blurring of the tuning frequency, and, presumably all the harmonics that cause the top-end mush on THs. Might make it easier to cross over.

Chris
Not so sure about that. Tuning and all the harmonics are directly related to the enclosure itself, not the driver or the driver location. Putting the driver in different spots might light up the peaks differently but it can't change tuning or the location of the peaks.

Looking at measurements of dual driver THs on DSL and data-bass, the peaks look pretty well defined, not blurred at all.
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Old 24th March 2015, 06:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
it can't change tuning or the location of the peaks
Why not?

Changing the driver location does alter the length of the last segment, which mostly influences the location of the higher cut off. This can be easily theorised from the perspective of a series tuned 6th order BP.

Best regards Johan
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Old 24th March 2015, 06:26 PM   #6
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One of the first things I ever learned when I started learning about transmission lines is that you could move the driver around to get rid of peaks and dips by illuminating them differently by driver location. This does not change where the harmonics are for the most part, it only changes how the driver interacts with them. Sure, the impedance changes a bit but the harmonics don't really move around much. This is a very common tweak, common driver positions for transmissions are .217 and .414 x line length, those positions can provide much smoother response than putting the driver right at the closed end of the line.

Here's a quick pic.

Click the image to open in full size.

In this random tapped horn I changed L45 from 36 to 75 cm. Even though that's a massive change in driver position, and even though that also changes the shape of the line somewhat (I forgot to change S4 to Auto and I'm not redoing the pic) the peaks are still in the same places and they are not blurred.

If you start making massive changes, like moving the driver 100 cm or more, you can make some pretty significant changes to response and impedance, but what we are talking about here is the comment that having the drivers offset by their physical distance of a few inches would blur the tuning and peaks. For the purposes of this question the practical answer is that having drivers offset by their physical distance is not going to blur the tuning and peaks.
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Old 24th March 2015, 07:31 PM   #7
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You can't simulate the blurring of the peaks. The "blurred" response is the average of the two separate driver locations. Which in case of 15" drivers will give a 3 - 5 Hz difference in higher cut off location. This in turn will cause a rounding of the higher peak (or a blur).

In post 4 you state that driver location doesn't change the tuning, in post 6 you state that it does change the tuning by a little, now I call that progress

And to be honest, you seem to be the kinda person that rather writes a lenghty response than stand corrected (it takes one too know one), so I'm going to do a little victory dance over here.

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Old 24th March 2015, 07:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Rademakers View Post
You can't simulate the blurring of the peaks. The "blurred" response is the average of the two separate driver locations. Which in case of 15" drivers will give a 3 - 5 Hz difference in higher cut off location. This in turn will cause a rounding of the higher peak (or a blur).
Sure you can simulate it just fine. Use Akabak and sim the drivers as individuals instead of one driver. In this case I really don't think it's worth the bother. Two drivers separated by a few inches absolutely will behave differently than a single driver but it's nothing to get excited about. And if you check the measurements on DSL and data-bass there's absolutely no blurring of any peaks. The peaks are just as sharp as single driver measurements.

Quote:
In post 4 you state that driver location doesn't change the tuning, in post 6 you state that it does change the tuning by a little, now I call that progress

And to be honest, you seem to be the kinda person that rather writes a lenghty response than stand corrected (it takes one too know one), so I'm going to do a little victory dance over here.

Best regards
Anytime you change anything it's going to change the impedance, I'm not sure if that's worth doing a dance.

I write lengthy responses because that's what it takes to fully explain what I'm talking about.

I truly invite you to find ANYTHING I've EVER said that was incorrect and we can discuss it. (That doesn't imply I was never wrong, just that I am willing to discuss any occasion I've ever been wrong.)

If I was incorrect and you can prove it, I always admit it. Don't believe me? Do a keyword search with my username and the words "wrong", "sorry", "mistaken", etc, and you will find that I admit I'm wrong far more than the vast majority of people on forums. I absolutely love being wrong, it gives me an opportunity to learn something new, and I always admit when I'm wrong.

Go ahead. Prove me wrong. I dare you.

Last edited by just a guy; 24th March 2015 at 07:53 PM.
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Old 24th March 2015, 08:54 PM   #9
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Let's try this one more time and only discuss the technical issues, not personality or posting style.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rademakers View Post
You can't simulate the blurring of the peaks. The "blurred" response is the average of the two separate driver locations. Which in case of 15" drivers will give a 3 - 5 Hz difference in higher cut off location. This in turn will cause a rounding of the higher peak (or a blur).
If you are talking about amplitude being blurred, I would agree 100 percent. In fact that's exactly what my picture shows and it's exactly what I described when I said different driver positions illuminate the harmonics differently. The harmonics don't move but the different driver positions light them up in different ways.

But if you are talking about frequency of the peaks being blurred (and that's exactly what Chris was talking about when he talked about tuning shifting and top end mush being easier to cross over) than I have to disagree. My picture clearly shows none of that happening.

Quote:
In post 4 you state that driver location doesn't change the tuning, in post 6 you state that it does change the tuning by a little, now I call that progress
I never said tuning would shift, I said impedance changes. Here's proof. This is the excursion graph of the tapped horn shown above. The excursion graph shows tuning most clearly, I think. This time I moved the mouth side driver tap over 100 cm and tuning remains exactly the same. All the blips in the excursion graph are in the same spot regardless of driver position. That's because the harmonics are still in the same spot regardless of where the driver is.

The impedance graph is quite a bit different, as you would expect when you move the driver more than a meter down the line but the harmonics are all in the same spot. Tuning doesn't change. Peaks don't shift in frequency, only in amplitude.

Click the image to open in full size.

I'm happy to post detailed proof of any statement I make. Always. Don't imply I'm trying to weasel around issues with long posts. If I'm wrong I'll admit I'm wrong.

Last edited by just a guy; 24th March 2015 at 09:05 PM.
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Old 24th March 2015, 09:24 PM   #10
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This is a good exercise to do in Akabak. Do a full model with separate drivers where in a TH the tap and throat positioning for both will be different. you'll see some interesting things. The overall response of the subwoofer and the voltage sensitivity of the sub will be close to splitting the difference of the placements in HR but if you dig deeper and start looking at things like individual driver excursion, impedance, loading and the forces seen by each cone you'll see it does not match the simple method in HR and you'll lose what can be a not insignificant amount of output near the driver excursion maximums.
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