Here is a tale of two woofers and a cheap carpenter :
I became interested in DIY and audio in the 80's and Pyle made some decent woofers then. No frills quality stuff. So I was interested in their current offerings....
Pyle-Pro has a woofer said to be a "800 watt - replacement subwoofer - " at various websites. Pro audio grade. And it sure does look like an RCF with their T-Pole back plate.
I purchase one and the Box says "Subwoofer", however it also states a weight of 5.67 lbs.( it has a shipping weight of 29 1/2 lbs.); shows a picture of an 18" woofer; and claims to be a good RCF replacement. frequency response of FO-2.5k ....
....so many errors and no published specs.
something is very wrong here.....I disregarded all my chores for the day and setup LIMP.
It is a mid-bass of serious intent. Perhaps an RCF but most definitely built to Pyle spec. They have nothing even close in their catalog.
BTW the top plate is only 7.5mm or 7mm or 8mm depending on how I use my calipers. RCF prefer 10-15mm top plates. Pictures tend to be another model or RCF on retailers websites showing larger plates. ... The driver really does look RCF upon visual inspection. And the grossly wrong box definitely printed in China. - It states : made in China. Or perhaps RCF is selling their parts.
Regardless. It is not a subwoofer
Here are the T/S specs for a Pyle-Pro PDW158
I became interested in DIY and audio in the 80's and Pyle made some decent woofers then. No frills quality stuff. So I was interested in their current offerings....
Pyle-Pro has a woofer said to be a "800 watt - replacement subwoofer - " at various websites. Pro audio grade. And it sure does look like an RCF with their T-Pole back plate.
I purchase one and the Box says "Subwoofer", however it also states a weight of 5.67 lbs.( it has a shipping weight of 29 1/2 lbs.); shows a picture of an 18" woofer; and claims to be a good RCF replacement. frequency response of FO-2.5k ....
....so many errors and no published specs.
something is very wrong here.....I disregarded all my chores for the day and setup LIMP. It is a mid-bass of serious intent. Perhaps an RCF but most definitely built to Pyle spec. They have nothing even close in their catalog.
BTW the top plate is only 7.5mm or 7mm or 8mm depending on how I use my calipers. RCF prefer 10-15mm top plates. Pictures tend to be another model or RCF on retailers websites showing larger plates. ... The driver really does look RCF upon visual inspection. And the grossly wrong box definitely printed in China. - It states : made in China. Or perhaps RCF is selling their parts.
Regardless. It is not a subwoofer
Here are the T/S specs for a Pyle-Pro PDW158
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If that is hard to see : PDW158 T/S specs :
Fs =56.36 Hz.
Re = 5.0
Le = 583.24 uH
L2 = 1614.16 uH
R2 = 26.15 ohms
Qt = 0.56
Qes = 0.60
Qms = 8.46
Mms = 136.44 grams
Rms = 5.709138 kg/s
Cms = .000058 m/N
Vas = 67.66 liters
Sd= 907.92cm^2
Bl = 20.044876 Tm
ETA = 1.94%
Probably a mighty Mid-bass. but I was shopping for a subwoofer....
Music Gear for Less publishes false T/S specs. The specs appear to be standard RCF catalog offering. I did not know this and bought the Pyle partly based on their false marketing.
Sham on you MusicGearforLess. You are totally inept liars.
http://musicgearforless.com/PDW158?filter_name=pdw158
Amazon are idiots, that is a given : Love to shop there btw....
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-Pro-1600-Professional-Replacement-Subwoofer/dp/B003LPXNVE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425913211&sr=8-1&keywords=pdw158
Fs =56.36 Hz.
Re = 5.0
Le = 583.24 uH
L2 = 1614.16 uH
R2 = 26.15 ohms
Qt = 0.56
Qes = 0.60
Qms = 8.46
Mms = 136.44 grams
Rms = 5.709138 kg/s
Cms = .000058 m/N
Vas = 67.66 liters
Sd= 907.92cm^2
Bl = 20.044876 Tm
ETA = 1.94%
Probably a mighty Mid-bass. but I was shopping for a subwoofer....
Music Gear for Less publishes false T/S specs. The specs appear to be standard RCF catalog offering. I did not know this and bought the Pyle partly based on their false marketing.
Sham on you MusicGearforLess. You are totally inept liars.
http://musicgearforless.com/PDW158?filter_name=pdw158
Amazon are idiots, that is a given : Love to shop there btw....
http://www.amazon.com/Pyle-Pro-1600-Professional-Replacement-Subwoofer/dp/B003LPXNVE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1425913211&sr=8-1&keywords=pdw158
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I purchase one and the Box says "Subwoofer", however it also states a weight of 5.67 lbs.( it has a shipping weight of 29 1/2 lbs.); shows a picture of an 18" woofer; and claims to be a good RCF replacement. frequency response of FO-2.5k ....
....so many errors and no published specs.
Not sure what you were expecting from a $140 15 inch pro woofer. I wouldn't worry about errors on the box as long as the driver performs well. It's got a 4 inch voice coil (if the link you provided with the $140 price is correct) and the specs seem reasonable so if the 8.5 mm xmax is true it looks like a good driver.
First, a lot of parts are not specific to any company, tooling is expensive so there's a big market of parts that can be purchased by anyone. Not sure about THESE parts, but there's no reason I see to assume that RCF has anything to do with these, although it's certainly possible that they were manufactured by RCF and rebranded. Either way it really makes no difference at all.
Second, just because the fs is a bit high doesn't mean these are not sub drivers (or can't be used as sub drivers). If the listed xmax is correct these absolutely can be used to make good subs. There's nothing at all wrong with a high(ish) fs, there aren't nearly enough drivers with high enough fs. A lot of people DON'T want flat anechoic response down to tuning as that will provide bloated bass in room, and a lot of designs like tapped horns require fs to be well above tuning for best results. I wish there were more woofers with fs of 60 hz or higher to choose from.
Third, you didn't use enough weight when you tested the t/s parameters with LIMP. You want to raise fs at least 25 percent to get accurate results.
Fourth, just because your LIMP results don't match the manufacturers results doesn't mean they lied. There are many reasons this could be the case. Some manufacturers test at low voltage, some test at higher voltage. You can also test at different voltage with LIMP, by using the sound card alone or using an in line amp. Different voltage levels will give different results. Also, if you didn't break in the driver before testing you won't get the same results the manufacturer did.
Fifth, just because your results look different doesn't mean the parameters you tested would need a different box than the parameters the manufacturer published. Your measured qts is quite a bit higher but your measured VAS is quite a bit lower, and these differences will offset each other and equalize to a certain extent.
I don't know anything about this driver other than the links you posted but if the rated xmax is true it looks pretty sweet for $140. Not sure what you are complaining about. Free shipping, no tax, and you could probably get it even cheaper than listed if you are a good shopper.
The Fs is very high for a subwoofer. And that is the way it is advertised every where.
My gripe.
the Fs/Qt is
Great for a sealed 2 way top with subwoofer reinforcement. ( I am going to look at there 12 for such an application)
Great for a sealed Bass Guitar instrument cabinet. Because it would be bandwidth limited.
As I said this would be a mighty Mid-Bass but it is not a "Professional Subwoofer".
I'll simulate it later perhaps ...Naa... don't care.
My gripe.
the Fs/Qt is
Great for a sealed 2 way top with subwoofer reinforcement. ( I am going to look at there 12 for such an application)
Great for a sealed Bass Guitar instrument cabinet. Because it would be bandwidth limited.
As I said this would be a mighty Mid-Bass but it is not a "Professional Subwoofer".
I'll simulate it later perhaps ...Naa... don't care.
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Well...
Depending on your definition of "professional subwoofer" it may or may not be what you need.
If you want flat extension to 20 hz (or lower) it will do that in a reasonably sized tapped horn, see first pic. That's not a good tapped horn by my standards, but the driver WILL do 20 hz flat (or lower) if that's what you want.
And if you want a max flat ported box see the second pic. That looks like the response of a pro sub if you ask me.
Also you gave no indication of whether you broke this driver in yet, I'm guessing no, and that will change things quite a bit. Fs will go lower once it's broken in (if it's not already broken in). Then you can have your max flat ported box with response flat to a lower frequency than shown.
But if you are the type of guy that spends money ordering drivers and doesn't even bother to break them in or sim them at all, probably nothing is going to work out for you.
You don't care? You purchased the driver and have attempted to measure the driver. Part of the whole DIY thing is learning as we almost never get it right on the first time 
As just a guy says many things can affect T/S parameters. The first thing you must always do before measuring them is to run in the driver, pretty much at rated xmax, especially for corrugated/stiffer initial suspension types, for say 24-48 hours with a 20Hz test signal. This should soften the moving parts nicely and you are now ready to make measurements of T/S parameters. Certainly with the added mass method you need to add enough to move the fs of the driver by a significant amount otherwise you introduce too much error into the measurement. Then, as was said above, T/S parameter values shift depending on the drive level, so it's worth testing them at various different levels, but mostly just test at 2.83vRMS.
Parameter ratios are what really matter though, so for a sealed application, the overall frequency response might be quite similar due to the higher qts, but significantly lower VAS. Certainly the drivers volume displacement will be the same, even if the T/S parameters are not, providing it's xmax is genuine. This means it could be eq'd to do whatever you want.
Just to clarify the 'sub' woofer aspect of this driver, some manufacturers claim 'sub' status on 4" drivers, It really means nothing. It's up to the buyer to determine how useful the driver really is for their application. As per the T/S parameters provided by the manufacturer it's clear that this driver isn't really suited for sub applications anyway, especially in a vented alignment. It is, as you said, perfect for the bottom of a three way though.
From my point of view sub bass and professional drivers are a bit of an oxymoron. Most 15-18" pro drivers are not designed with parameters orientated towards 20Hz, or lower than 20Hz operation. They are almost always optimised around having huge amounts of output down to around the mid 30s for music reproduction. If you want serious sub bass, like for some cinema installations, you have to get very specific with your driver selection and usually you end up paying dearly for this.
For the home environment however, the best route to deep bass is to buy speciality sub drivers that aren't aimed at anything other than sub bass and have huge surrounds to boot. Moderate examples of these are the XLS series from Peerless, the Dayton RS series of subs, such as the RSS390HF-4, with slightly more extreme versions being their Ultimax series. There are other manufacturers that go to even greater lengths to give you 1.5 to 2" of one way xmax. This is always at the expense of sensitivity, but they have the potential to produce huge amounts of bass. Their T/S parameters are optimised entirely around giving you very low tuning frequencies, which is exactly what you want for true HT sub bass. Yes you need oodles of power, but power is cheap nowadays, plus they will work in relatively small boxes.
As just a guy says many things can affect T/S parameters. The first thing you must always do before measuring them is to run in the driver, pretty much at rated xmax, especially for corrugated/stiffer initial suspension types, for say 24-48 hours with a 20Hz test signal. This should soften the moving parts nicely and you are now ready to make measurements of T/S parameters. Certainly with the added mass method you need to add enough to move the fs of the driver by a significant amount otherwise you introduce too much error into the measurement. Then, as was said above, T/S parameter values shift depending on the drive level, so it's worth testing them at various different levels, but mostly just test at 2.83vRMS.
Parameter ratios are what really matter though, so for a sealed application, the overall frequency response might be quite similar due to the higher qts, but significantly lower VAS. Certainly the drivers volume displacement will be the same, even if the T/S parameters are not, providing it's xmax is genuine. This means it could be eq'd to do whatever you want.
Just to clarify the 'sub' woofer aspect of this driver, some manufacturers claim 'sub' status on 4" drivers, It really means nothing. It's up to the buyer to determine how useful the driver really is for their application. As per the T/S parameters provided by the manufacturer it's clear that this driver isn't really suited for sub applications anyway, especially in a vented alignment. It is, as you said, perfect for the bottom of a three way though.
From my point of view sub bass and professional drivers are a bit of an oxymoron. Most 15-18" pro drivers are not designed with parameters orientated towards 20Hz, or lower than 20Hz operation. They are almost always optimised around having huge amounts of output down to around the mid 30s for music reproduction. If you want serious sub bass, like for some cinema installations, you have to get very specific with your driver selection and usually you end up paying dearly for this.
For the home environment however, the best route to deep bass is to buy speciality sub drivers that aren't aimed at anything other than sub bass and have huge surrounds to boot. Moderate examples of these are the XLS series from Peerless, the Dayton RS series of subs, such as the RSS390HF-4, with slightly more extreme versions being their Ultimax series. There are other manufacturers that go to even greater lengths to give you 1.5 to 2" of one way xmax. This is always at the expense of sensitivity, but they have the potential to produce huge amounts of bass. Their T/S parameters are optimised entirely around giving you very low tuning frequencies, which is exactly what you want for true HT sub bass. Yes you need oodles of power, but power is cheap nowadays, plus they will work in relatively small boxes.
Pyle is known to mostly peddle junk. Caveat emptor applies to everything they sell. Their advertised power handling ratings are laughable and I really wouldn't be surprised if you're right that the TS parameters are off by either a bit or a lot. That said if you don't take what they advertise at face value and do your own measurements and models, you can probably get a good value out of some of their speakers.
I did a small writeup of what I did to make use of some of their woofers I ended up with.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/270278-pyle-junk-into-pile-bass.html
jag's sims imply the driver isn't hopeless at all. On the other hand, a lot of the drivers they sell are ridiculously hard to make a balanced design for.
I did a small writeup of what I did to make use of some of their woofers I ended up with.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/270278-pyle-junk-into-pile-bass.html
jag's sims imply the driver isn't hopeless at all. On the other hand, a lot of the drivers they sell are ridiculously hard to make a balanced design for.
The measured parameters on that Pyle are actually fantastic!
Like JAG said , it is no problem getting a driver to play well below it's Free-Air resonance as long as you are putting it into the right cabinet ..... Resonant pipe based cabs (think quarter wave) can do this..
A TH , a TL , a Tapped-Pipe/Transflex , there are a number of good options that will get you down to 30 or 35hz with authority .... If you want higher level output (as with a PA) then shoot for 40hz FB with one of the above listed alignments ....
By the way , after some break-in time expect the VAS to increase , FS will decrease , and your QES/QTS will also decrease ..
Like JAG said , it is no problem getting a driver to play well below it's Free-Air resonance as long as you are putting it into the right cabinet ..... Resonant pipe based cabs (think quarter wave) can do this..
A TH , a TL , a Tapped-Pipe/Transflex , there are a number of good options that will get you down to 30 or 35hz with authority .... If you want higher level output (as with a PA) then shoot for 40hz FB with one of the above listed alignments ....
By the way , after some break-in time expect the VAS to increase , FS will decrease , and your QES/QTS will also decrease ..
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Well; Pyle-Drivers were decent speakers in the day (obsolete today). The specs are wonky. But they do sim deep and flat. However the impedance and excursion curves are odd. I would be concerned with phase since it would be operating below it's resonance for 50% of it's output.
Oddly for the similiar given box the PDW158 has similar response to an L15P400.
However. Excursion and Impedance are very different. the PDW could never handle it's rated output ???
This project is for my home stereo with an ear towards prototype of a DIY sub system for PA-DJ use (like 10-20 subs). I have an adjustable high pass at home but my PA system will be fixed at -6db at 25Hz. So I want safe operation in the 25-50hz region for synth bass.
I did attempt a break in (30minutes with 20 watts of dance music).
I used 50.5 grams of mass for a tested moving mass of 136gm- an RCF is 150 grams.
I am undecided. May just return it. ... It would work at home, but I want more than "just work".
I think I will try to Sim this in Boxplot. I think it will model phase. Has been a decade since I used it...
Any opinions on operating below Fs ?
Btw way I stand by some of my original post. MusicGear is posting RCF catalog specs for a different driver. And the pics being posted are questionable.
I must retract the "not subwoofer" statement- sorry for hasty statements
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sims are similar at 210L-240L ; just louder ?
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No problem.
Hornresponse can be really useful when trying to figure out which cabinet configuration best suits that driver (the software is a free download made available by an awesome guy named David M who can be found and communicated with here on DIYaudio, and don't worry even though the software is from Australia it will display itself right-side-up be default) ...
Hornresponse can be really useful when trying to figure out which cabinet configuration best suits that driver (the software is a free download made available by an awesome guy named David M who can be found and communicated with here on DIYaudio, and don't worry even though the software is from Australia it will display itself right-side-up be default
) ...
Well I did some real world simulation. 200 watts RMS (conservative-my sub amp bridged =270 watts/RMS/8ohm) , 3rd order butterworth high pass @ 30hz. (what I currently have installed in my crossover), 4th order L/W @ 90hz lowpass. No EQ.
It should stay linear. Phase may or may not be wonky. I am a noob that deep into theory. However I am curious about integration with my B&W acoustic suspension monitors (50hz. Fs w/ Low Qe) But with a crossover the phase is going to shift.....
It should stay linear. Phase may or may not be wonky. I am a noob that deep into theory. However I am curious about integration with my B&W acoustic suspension monitors (50hz. Fs w/ Low Qe) But with a crossover the phase is going to shift.....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
It is not suitable as a Pro-Sub, due to it's high Fs. it is excursion/power limited -In my opinion. Fantastic for professional bass guitar. may or may not be great for lower power home use....
Pyle post T/S specs for some of their pro drivers. The ones that have good, traditional specs (the grey ones). This line they do not publish specs. Perhaps; MusicGear is/was in fantasy land trying to visually/feature/power rating match the Pyle driver to RCF catalog offerings.
anyone listen to music on a "retail home theater sub" ? went to Magnolia one day. I literally told the salesman "turn that $$tt down, it sounds horrible", " I only want to hear the little B&W speakers, turn off the sub"...every single sub was horrible; partly setup, partly design....rhetorical question. no replies please
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more for you to consider
Not 96db or 99db;
about 93-94db....
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Not 96db or 99db;
about 93-94db....
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Typical for Pyle and mobile audio 'subs' in general where I noticed it was mostly recommended/sold.
No, not long term below the lower mids, so safe operation so far below its Fs will be severely limited to around ~6 W according to WinISD 0.7.
FWIW, to calculate Vas you ideally want to add enough mass to lower Fs by at least 1.56x or ~ 36 Hz.
Nothing wrong with operating a driver below Fs, BagEnd became famous for theirs that is used only below Fs, you just have to accept its much reduced power handling and protect it accordingly either electronically or acoustically with a massive horn.
For high power apps with > ~0.4 Qts drivers, a TL tuned to Fs/Qts has worked well for me.
Based on your performance goals combined with MfL's false advertising though, I'd want my money back or at least a swap for one that does meet them.
GM
Yeah, I recently auditioned the local Magnolia room's high end front projector THX reference theater allegedly professionally calibrated and it was pretty disappointing overall with no deep blacks even at super dim theater light levels and overpowering, boomy bass.
The mains, surround sound was pretty impressive though except that with such a large screen with the mains so far below 2/3 screen height, my brain didn't quite reconcile this much offset for speech, though maybe if I hadn't known this...........
The HT setups in the Best Buy area are so bad that I much prefer a modest DIY 2.1 system overall with the processor set to 'theater wide'.
GM
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