sub recommendation 4,5cu 400usd

[stanieltron]

Hello,
as my audio knowledge isn't any good,so i would rather ask for advice. I would like to build a sub, my prefferences:
-max 4,5 cu ft external volume
-driver for max 350 usd
-brand with eu dealership (shipping of heavy stuff from usa is ridiculous)
-home sub, so super high spl isn't prio 1
-mostly for music, so should be able to play "tight/fast" bass
-needed also to reinforce my mains in bass section in which im not sattisfied, so should be crossoverable little higher
-should be able to go down to 20hz (not saying flat to 20, but also not with -20db)

Any advices, links, allready done projects etc are very appreciated. Thank you

 

[stanieltron]

no one?

No one? at least something close. For example ultimax 15" seems to be something like that, except in europe its twice the price, so its no longer bang for buck speaker

 

[sabaspeed521]

Size constraint is a tough one, if size no object: build a THT (billfitzmaurice.info). That will cost you no more than 200 USD for a driver and will decimate in output. Fast tight bass is a myth but ignoring that you seem to want compact with low end extension. First question is how big is the room? if not too big you can count on room gain to make a decent sealed sub go that low. With your size constraints I would be tempted to go with dual 12's in appropriately small sealed enclosures. Do you have a couch next to a corner? If so I would go with a transmission line where the sub goes underneath the couch in a very slim T-line extension.
If 30 Hz is enough I just modeled a sub that uses a single 50usd driver and would be about 4 cu. ft. I have no idea what they call the design type though and I'm not sure if you can get the required apline swe 10s4 in Europe easily.

 

[sabaspeed521]

You may be talking about "group delay" or decay time, or waterfall response. High order filters add a lot of delay, sealed has the least (besides some fancy designs). Ported would be louder than sealed but likely you won't tune a box that low with your size requirement.

imo, go sealed with 2 12's or 1 15 and throw the specs into bassbox for an easy estimate.

 

[stanieltron]

Room is pretty small, luving room with kitchen, is around 4x6m couch is in the middle - 3m from front wall, sub will go in the corner in front. I would like cube or somethig close design. I also would like that sub to be an overkill for that room, so i could take it occasionaly to a birthday party or so. I've recently build "reasonable" front speakers for that room and i came to aa conclusion "reasonable" performance is not worth building , you can buy it at walmart, so the room actually isn't the factor, it should perform elswhere as well. I would preffer 15+ sealed, but 12 or so vented is also an option if it can fit the size. I found several vented eminence lab 12 with that enclosure size, but i would like to do better.

At parts express they recommended sealed ultimax 18, which can go to that size, but as i mentioned i can get ultimax in europe for nearly 2 the price of PE

 

[OscarS]

If mostly for music, i'd go with a quality Pro audio driver. Fane and Precision Devices in England come to mind. Unless you really need the low bass, a 35Hz ported alignment will blend well with most music.

 

[Inductor]

-should be able to go down to 20hz (not saying flat to 20, but also not with -20db)

I would preffer 15+ sealed, but 12 or so vented is also an option if it can fit the size.

Ha, lol.
Scanspeak 30W 4558T00 Discovery in a sealed. pdf
Scanspeak 30W 4558T00 Discovery

Forget the bass-reflex. Or forget the sealed if you don't get satisfied with the sub you have in mind, after you build it.
other links
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/257203-bass-support-below-150-hz.html

 

[Inductor]

The other way around, you have in mind for flat to 20 hz, like you where induced by the marketing of the commercially available speakers subs, you need a LT or DSP (sealed).

 

[stanieltron]

i don't want 20hz flat, just with reasonable spl loss. Pro audio drivers have much higher fs than home subs. How are those scanspeak and peerless woofers Subwoofers • 12 inch • Europe Audio compared to dayton ultimax 12,15, or reference 12,15 comparing minding the price i can get hem for? https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/Loudspeakers/Dayton/Dayton-Subwoofer/1768,en,7053 . As i mentioned i have very little knowledge and TS parrameters dont say very much to me, so i cannot compare, but just their weight is 1/2, 1/3 of daytons hmm. What sub would you get if you were in my shoes?

 

[stanieltron]

basically the question is if you think daytons ultimax 12,15 or reference 12,15 would be better choice than peerless or scanspeak, even with their ridiculous price compared to parts express for example (prices are in links above)

 

[stanieltron]

so the challange stays the same, up to 4,5 cu ft, but with EU price of a driver up to 300eur, (intertechnik.de, europe-audio.com)should have low over-hang or how do you define that kind of bass that don't boom after initial "kick", if there isn't any in thing you are playing. Should go to 20 with reasonable loss.

 

[Inductor]

so the challange stays the same, up to 4,5 cu ft, but with EU price of a driver up to 300eur, (intertechnik.de, europe-audio.com)... Should go to 20 with reasonable loss.

Dayton Audio TS400D-4 15" Titanic Mk 4 Subwoofer
4.5ft³ = 127.43L -> 95L (net) (w/22mm ply)
This woofer is adequate in a sealed box your size and QTC = 0.7.
Have fun.

 

[stanieltron]

Thank you for response, i have several questions
1- From what i've read so far, do i understand i correctly that qtc parameter in subwoofer designs is bassicaly how precisely can cone move? Lower qtc means motor has better control over cone movement, so there is less "boomyness, over-hang, tighter bass" or how would you describe it (serriously what is the propper word for it)?
2- If so, what are ideal values for different aplications ( probably you need les qts for music than for movies?) Is 0.7 a good value or should i aim for lower if i would like it primarily for music?
3- if i put titanic in smaller enclosure, how would it change basic parameters? higher qts, lower spl curve, higher f3?
4- how would ultimax 15 compare to titanic 15 in same enclosure?

I am probably wrong in som asumptions, i'm just learning from reading here and there, so please correct me

Thank you

 

[stanieltron]

How can i spot sub design, which will stop when he is suposed to. For example if in recording is 0.1 sec 30hz kick,driver will produce only that sound and stops, no additional 0.2sec of wobling and bass "afterecho". I know that bass in rooms tend to bounce and stuff and create aditional "aftersounds", but its better if sub itself doesn't do it. This is what i imagine in "tight" bass. Is qtc parameter of sub doing this? Or is it a combination of several factors, how fast can sub stop in its track?

 

[sabaspeed521]

Impulse response measurements and waterfall plots can measure it, but you'd probably want to look into bass traps if you are interested in ultra accurate reproduction because any untreated room will have significant resonance and echo much worse than the driver. Design a cabinet that minimizes excursion for less motor distortion and cone harmonics. Folded horns do that but are too big for your application.

 

[stanieltron]

Thanks, i dont want to do anything extreme, i wont be treating my room. I just thought it would be wise to take this "bass tightness" into consideration as i preffer "tighter" bass, and the bass hanging in air is something i really dont like about in loud low end ht subs. So if a sub has qtc 0,6- 0,8, i wont really know the difference in untreated room?

I really want to go as small as possible (reasonably) in that application would be titanic better than ultimax? How do they compare to peerless xxl subs?

 

[Inductor]

I really want to go as small as possible (reasonably)

RSS315HF-4, sealed 65/70 - 80L net (QTC = 0.7)
https://www.intertechnik.com/Shop/L...yton-Subwoofer/_RSS315HF-4_1768,en,7053,52674

 

[stanieltron]

Thank you for replies
Another thing i wanted to ask, ppl are always considering the right ratio between low end extension of HZ, "flavor of sound" QTC, SPL. Is it possible to make "modular" sub of set volume, where you can electronically switch or tune from "HT" to "music" use. Something like lower overall SPL, let qtc rise, extend to as low frequencies as possible for HT, and sacrifice <30hz for higher spl and lower qtc? Basically electronically switch between parameters preferred for HT and MUSIC use?

(maybe i am not understanding the relations well)

http://www.vandersteen.com/2w_specifications.pdf is sub with adjustable qtc, they are doing the qtc part somehow.

Maybe the spl tune part could be done by ported design with 2 differently tuned ports, when you would simply mechanically plug the port you are not using and you will get different box?

Just a stupid idea, i know very little, just wondering if such thing is doable, and how

 

[Inductor]

It's done many times be it with ports, electrically, resistors in DVCs or Sonus Faber Extrema user-variable bass damping in the ABR passive radiator.
B&W ACOUSTITUNE SUB
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...ndations-acheive-30hz-sealed.html#post3782551
Sonus Faber Extrema loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

 

[BeauB]

Inductor (and others) - is this (dual tuning) not the same concept we occasionally see used in an ABC subwoofer enclosure design?