--*Alright, So I've been sifting through some sims trying to nail down a semi affordable install sub (aka, size is not the design concern as long as I keep it to 3 sheets of ply or less) capable of HIGH output down to 30hz.
I decided on 400 liters and after sorting through my past sims I found I had a number of decent rough designs sitting around the 400 to 450 liter mark. Most
unfortunately only went down to about 35hz, and the FLH horn variants preferred large stacks (I dont think I'll be putting 8 18" loaded 35hz FLHs in a venue any time soon).
1 stuck out, originally right at the 450 liter mark, I've since reduced the size to 400 liters.
This sim is a dual loaded TH, loaded with Faital Pro 12 1030hps wired in series Pic attached shows input screen, 4v (1w into 16ohms sensitivity) schem diagram, and max spl in a stack of 8 vs max spl of an 8 stack of "theoretical labhorns". As you can see, it offers about 2 to 3 db more max output (although power reqs are steeper) and about 5 hz (more after hipass filters are applied to both) useable extension, when the stacks are compared. the TH is about 2/3 the size of the labhorn.
Now... I know the multiple speaker commands accuracy is debated when it comes to anything other than FLHs, but considering the mouth is fairly large (2800 Sq cm) I figure I could expect at least some gain, So I included that comparison at the bottom of the pic anyways! 🙄
I'm reaching out here because I believe I'm almost satisified with the sim results and ready to proceed to folding it up. I'm looking for ideas on outside box dimensions, as well as driver orientation (side by side or 1 after the other with s2 in the middle, which is what I assumed when I started the sim, as one can see by the long l12 and l45). I'm also looking for any relavant suggestions pertaining to increasing performance before I move to the folding stage, but I would like to keep it under 425 liters.
Hopefully we can cook up something nice here. I know the 1030 isnt a SUPER cheap driver.... but even so I should be able to keep the box under 1k in build cost (3/4" ply, duratex, heavy discount on retail price of driver). If you have alternative driver suggestions feel free to post sim em/post em whatever. I would GREATLY appreciate if we could keep driver suggestions to those that have 1000w AES or greater power handling, as I dont really want to exceed 1/2 AES rating by more than 20% to reach xmax, vs the labhorn which takes AES rating to reach xmax, in the interest of reducing power compression and hopefully protecting woofers from thermal failure.
link to driver: FaitalPRO 12HP1030 12" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm
My initial estimates for dimensions was 30wx48dx21.5h external, with 3/4 ply. I would not be oppossed to 16.5 tall either, using 15" wide pieces of 5x5 ply makes for good sheet efficiency, and would make this easy to slide under stages, or stack into an 8 driver behemoth
EDIT:
I realize CR is pretty high at about 4:1....
I decided on 400 liters and after sorting through my past sims I found I had a number of decent rough designs sitting around the 400 to 450 liter mark. Most
unfortunately only went down to about 35hz, and the FLH horn variants preferred large stacks (I dont think I'll be putting 8 18" loaded 35hz FLHs in a venue any time soon).
1 stuck out, originally right at the 450 liter mark, I've since reduced the size to 400 liters.
This sim is a dual loaded TH, loaded with Faital Pro 12 1030hps wired in series Pic attached shows input screen, 4v (1w into 16ohms sensitivity) schem diagram, and max spl in a stack of 8 vs max spl of an 8 stack of "theoretical labhorns". As you can see, it offers about 2 to 3 db more max output (although power reqs are steeper) and about 5 hz (more after hipass filters are applied to both) useable extension, when the stacks are compared. the TH is about 2/3 the size of the labhorn.
Now... I know the multiple speaker commands accuracy is debated when it comes to anything other than FLHs, but considering the mouth is fairly large (2800 Sq cm) I figure I could expect at least some gain, So I included that comparison at the bottom of the pic anyways! 🙄
I'm reaching out here because I believe I'm almost satisified with the sim results and ready to proceed to folding it up. I'm looking for ideas on outside box dimensions, as well as driver orientation (side by side or 1 after the other with s2 in the middle, which is what I assumed when I started the sim, as one can see by the long l12 and l45). I'm also looking for any relavant suggestions pertaining to increasing performance before I move to the folding stage, but I would like to keep it under 425 liters.
Hopefully we can cook up something nice here. I know the 1030 isnt a SUPER cheap driver.... but even so I should be able to keep the box under 1k in build cost (3/4" ply, duratex, heavy discount on retail price of driver). If you have alternative driver suggestions feel free to post sim em/post em whatever. I would GREATLY appreciate if we could keep driver suggestions to those that have 1000w AES or greater power handling, as I dont really want to exceed 1/2 AES rating by more than 20% to reach xmax, vs the labhorn which takes AES rating to reach xmax, in the interest of reducing power compression and hopefully protecting woofers from thermal failure.
link to driver: FaitalPRO 12HP1030 12" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm
My initial estimates for dimensions was 30wx48dx21.5h external, with 3/4 ply. I would not be oppossed to 16.5 tall either, using 15" wide pieces of 5x5 ply makes for good sheet efficiency, and would make this easy to slide under stages, or stack into an 8 driver behemoth
EDIT:
I realize CR is pretty high at about 4:1....
Attachments
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I will look for an equivalent 18 Sound product. So this will be about the same SD as an 18 and it will offer just another space option?
This is a dual 12" TH yes? Sorry if I missed something or did not read it correctly. It has been a long day.
This is a dual 12" TH yes? Sorry if I missed something or did not read it correctly. It has been a long day.
Your loudspeaker rolls of at 45HZ so how are you going to achieve 30HZ response with any clarity?
Try one of these Eminence Bass Speakers;
Eminence Lab 12 - Thomann UK
Other suppliers are available.
Try one of these Eminence Bass Speakers;
Eminence Lab 12 - Thomann UK
Other suppliers are available.
You do realise that the actual enclosure will be at least 500 liter? Just checking.
I would use a compression ratio of 3:1, otherwise you'll be able to hear the driver on high power levels.
Best regards Johan
I would use a compression ratio of 3:1, otherwise you'll be able to hear the driver on high power levels.
Best regards Johan
Hi sin143,
I'll attach a folding example I did a while back for a dual 12PS100 TH, just food for thought, not intended to be used as is.
Regards,
I'll attach a folding example I did a while back for a dual 12PS100 TH, just food for thought, not intended to be used as is.
Regards,
Oliver, thank you for that fold contribution! I dont know if it will work for the original sim, but there are 2 smaller sims that spawned off this one (one by myself, one by another forum member via pm) that might have a small enough l45 to fit in that fold.
Jon snell.... this box does not roll off at 45 hz. It has a small, 1.5db sensitivity bump at 70 hz. In fact... response rolls UP after 45hz.... 45hz is the sensitivity minima in the pass band. Having 3 impedance maximas to shuffle around makes this a typical (if not flatter) tapped horn resp.
Here is an example of a "35 hz TH" using the Lab 12
\http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...a-tapped-horn-35hz-extension.html#post3417173
You'll see the response is much less smooth than my posted sim. THis is due to the lower bl, great vas, and lower FS of the Lab 12. A tapped horn (esp a small, low tuned tapped horn) begs for high BL, Low VAS, and higher fs than tuning. the 45hz fs, 29.91l VAS, 24.3 BL, and generally high Xmax of 12.45mm and 1000w AES power rating make the faital driver a much stronger choice for a 30hz tapped horn than the lab 12. factor in the fact that I can get 2 faital for the price of 3 lab 12s and I will pick the faital any day.
RadeMakers:
I realize it will be 500 liters or more based on my fold choice and fold efficiency I have no issues with that, and thats why I chose 400 liters as my target sim volume
As I mentioned, there are 2 smaller versions of this horn now (after some pm discussion) 300 liter version of the sim, and a 250 liter version that offer similar extension, at sacrifice of 1-2 db low end sensitivity (trade off is better excursion control, so it can take more power). I'll post these shortly.
I doubt I will be able to get the CR under 3.75:1 and maintained desired smoothness in passband (particularly right before the 5th harmonic spike. increasing S2 exacerbates the nasty dip there). Danley does use high CR, at 3.1 to 1 in the th18 clone (although this isnt really danley) for an 18" driver. We see ricci used OVER 4:1 (4.2:1) for his 21" loaded 30hz tapped horn "the Othorn".
Lets go in on the othorn a minute here, as its the only other prosound cab design thats been posted here thats gotten a lot of interest and goes down to 30hz (probably because its a great design and josh has posted so much useful info in the thread).
***Keep in mind the othorn hornresp sim is only a rough approximation (a really good one), as it was folded, then recreated in akabak, and finally in hornresp)****
The othorn takes 95v to reach xmax with the 21sw152 (single cab). this is about 2250w, a tad over the 21sw152s AES rating.
The dual faital 1030hp in post 1 , when wired in parrallel to represent a similar 4 ohm nominal load, is more sensitive above 31 hz. It will only take 70v to reach xmax as a single cab. , a little over 1200w (600 per driver, well below their 1000w AES rating). This is less stress on the VC, mainly due to the larger surface area of the 2 4" vcs vs the single 6" VC, but also due to the lower sd (runs out of xmax before taking a boat load of power).
While the faital dual TH is more sensitive, the Othorn flexes its extra SD and excursion capabilities and is thus capable of more max output, particularly below 32 hz, assuming no compression.
Heres a quick comparitive pic. shows 2 v into 4 ohms for both cabs, shows filtered max spl, and then shows filtered displacement at max spl.
Jon snell.... this box does not roll off at 45 hz. It has a small, 1.5db sensitivity bump at 70 hz. In fact... response rolls UP after 45hz.... 45hz is the sensitivity minima in the pass band. Having 3 impedance maximas to shuffle around makes this a typical (if not flatter) tapped horn resp.
Here is an example of a "35 hz TH" using the Lab 12
\http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...a-tapped-horn-35hz-extension.html#post3417173
You'll see the response is much less smooth than my posted sim. THis is due to the lower bl, great vas, and lower FS of the Lab 12. A tapped horn (esp a small, low tuned tapped horn) begs for high BL, Low VAS, and higher fs than tuning. the 45hz fs, 29.91l VAS, 24.3 BL, and generally high Xmax of 12.45mm and 1000w AES power rating make the faital driver a much stronger choice for a 30hz tapped horn than the lab 12. factor in the fact that I can get 2 faital for the price of 3 lab 12s and I will pick the faital any day.
RadeMakers:
I realize it will be 500 liters or more based on my fold choice and fold efficiency I have no issues with that, and thats why I chose 400 liters as my target sim volume
As I mentioned, there are 2 smaller versions of this horn now (after some pm discussion) 300 liter version of the sim, and a 250 liter version that offer similar extension, at sacrifice of 1-2 db low end sensitivity (trade off is better excursion control, so it can take more power). I'll post these shortly.
I doubt I will be able to get the CR under 3.75:1 and maintained desired smoothness in passband (particularly right before the 5th harmonic spike. increasing S2 exacerbates the nasty dip there). Danley does use high CR, at 3.1 to 1 in the th18 clone (although this isnt really danley) for an 18" driver. We see ricci used OVER 4:1 (4.2:1) for his 21" loaded 30hz tapped horn "the Othorn".
Lets go in on the othorn a minute here, as its the only other prosound cab design thats been posted here thats gotten a lot of interest and goes down to 30hz (probably because its a great design and josh has posted so much useful info in the thread).
***Keep in mind the othorn hornresp sim is only a rough approximation (a really good one), as it was folded, then recreated in akabak, and finally in hornresp)****
The othorn takes 95v to reach xmax with the 21sw152 (single cab). this is about 2250w, a tad over the 21sw152s AES rating.
The dual faital 1030hp in post 1 , when wired in parrallel to represent a similar 4 ohm nominal load, is more sensitive above 31 hz. It will only take 70v to reach xmax as a single cab. , a little over 1200w (600 per driver, well below their 1000w AES rating). This is less stress on the VC, mainly due to the larger surface area of the 2 4" vcs vs the single 6" VC, but also due to the lower sd (runs out of xmax before taking a boat load of power).
While the faital dual TH is more sensitive, the Othorn flexes its extra SD and excursion capabilities and is thus capable of more max output, particularly below 32 hz, assuming no compression.
Heres a quick comparitive pic. shows 2 v into 4 ohms for both cabs, shows filtered max spl, and then shows filtered displacement at max spl.
Attachments
TBH I could write about this forever, but I'm trying to follow the "rules" of the forum and not double post.
I believe this project will be morphing into 2 seperate projects.
a 400-450 liter 30hz horn, and a 300liter 35hz horn (similar spl and extension to the TH18 in a slightly smaller package).
The Main idea here is that a pair of 12s, while providing slightly less displacement than a single 18, should have more thermal power handling (less compression at xmax), a higher fs of 45 making it more suitable for a 30 to 35hz TH, more motor power (always good in a smallish, low tuned TH) Incredibly low VAS (again, useful for smallish low tuned TH), and they should offer more fold options due to having 2 drivers to play with, hopefully resulting in an easy cone correction.
I believe this project will be morphing into 2 seperate projects.
a 400-450 liter 30hz horn, and a 300liter 35hz horn (similar spl and extension to the TH18 in a slightly smaller package).
The Main idea here is that a pair of 12s, while providing slightly less displacement than a single 18, should have more thermal power handling (less compression at xmax), a higher fs of 45 making it more suitable for a 30 to 35hz TH, more motor power (always good in a smallish, low tuned TH) Incredibly low VAS (again, useful for smallish low tuned TH), and they should offer more fold options due to having 2 drivers to play with, hopefully resulting in an easy cone correction.
Let the games begin. 😀
I have always loved the DSL TH412 so to see another dual driver or more TH design is very interesting.
That Faital is an amazing driver. I dont know of another driver that has that amount of Xmax other than the Lab. And while not having probably as many simulation as yourself I am always simulating horn designs for random reasons. SO always great to see others ideas and learn.
I have always loved the DSL TH412 so to see another dual driver or more TH design is very interesting.
That Faital is an amazing driver. I dont know of another driver that has that amount of Xmax other than the Lab. And while not having probably as many simulation as yourself I am always simulating horn designs for random reasons. SO always great to see others ideas and learn.
yeah it has hefty xmax. there are definitely some drivers with more xmax, but not with the same 40hz fs and strong motor (and 4" coil)
They make a neo version too which is about the same, just lighter.
They make a neo version too which is about the same, just lighter.
While I would like to make a dual 12" or really a clone of the TH412 from DSL have you ever had a chance to look at the 18 Sound 12's?
I dont think any of them will be as big of a displacement mover as the Faital but they are less money for me. When adding up expenses to do a dual 12 or quad 12 design they end up costing a LOT more than buy a pair of 18's. I know they are going to cost more because of using more drivers but not by too much.
Maybe 12LW1400 or 12NLW9300?
I only ask if any of these have worked in your other simulations is all. I think my next TH is just going to be a big SPL monster that can do extension to 30hz but very efficient. Most likely something like the BC412 or TH412 like DIY. I know the BC does not go down that low. Just stating an idea of size and SPL.
That being said if I cant find a suitable 12 that is budget friendly than I will just have to build a TH18. BUT I am really intrigued by using multiple smaller drivers.
I think the faital 12's would cost me about 500 each delivered to me. That is $150 more than the 18 Sound 18" LW2400.
I dont think any of them will be as big of a displacement mover as the Faital but they are less money for me. When adding up expenses to do a dual 12 or quad 12 design they end up costing a LOT more than buy a pair of 18's. I know they are going to cost more because of using more drivers but not by too much.
Maybe 12LW1400 or 12NLW9300?
I only ask if any of these have worked in your other simulations is all. I think my next TH is just going to be a big SPL monster that can do extension to 30hz but very efficient. Most likely something like the BC412 or TH412 like DIY. I know the BC does not go down that low. Just stating an idea of size and SPL.
That being said if I cant find a suitable 12 that is budget friendly than I will just have to build a TH18. BUT I am really intrigued by using multiple smaller drivers.
I think the faital 12's would cost me about 500 each delivered to me. That is $150 more than the 18 Sound 18" LW2400.
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Those Faital 12HP1030's are unique - I have been designing a horn and have yet to find another driver with the same combination of high efficiency and large xmax with the ideal Qts for horn loading.
Same here. Nothing I have found comes close. When trying to find something close to it they dont have the Xmax. SO still looking. I have to find a driver where at least the Xmax is the ONLY difference. Less SPL and saving money is one thing vut sometimes the 1030 is a savings compared to buying 2 12's to equal it.
Either way I am hoping to see more of Sine143's progress.
Either way I am hoping to see more of Sine143's progress.
looking at the offerings from both BC and 18Sound I cannot find anything remotely similar.
The combination of high xmax (12.45mm)
Low VAS (30l)
High BL (24.x)
Decent MMD (124 g)
qts .3
EBP of 145
Makes it a very well suited choice for a 30-35hz tapped horn
Looking at BCs offereings, we have the tbx100, which has less xmax. response actually looks quite nice in this one. a little bit smoother than the faital, A HAIR more excursion control. it offers equivalent sensitivity, gives up about 2 db in final output.
18 sound on the other hand.... The 9300 is not an option. Low MMD + distortion and a compliant suspension considering it has lower FS than the faital. High vas of almost 80 liters = poor excursion control. Low BL = whacked out response chart, its much more suited to FLHs tuned around 35 with that BL. it does suppossedly have 11mm of klippel verified xmax... but still, the response is not pretty. I didnt check the lw1400, but it doesnt look promising.
After I pay rent this month (gotta whip up a little car sub in order to do that), I'll present my final 2 designs (300L 35hz, 400L 30-32hz), and hopefully proceed with folding. This is my first time folding a design that uses 2 woofers in a line on the horn path, so hopefully I can figure out.
Some interesting points from a couple private conversations I've had.
I always figured dual 12" would have less mech noise than a single 18 in a tapped horn (suspension noise). First hand accounts from my friend who is a Danley dealer notes the suspension noise on the TH812 is VERY noticable at high power, but on the TH221 you can barely hear it. figures. I'm experimenting with baffle/throat combinations that would allow me to put both drivers with magnets facing in, hopefully to avoid mech noise altogether.
The combination of high xmax (12.45mm)
Low VAS (30l)
High BL (24.x)
Decent MMD (124 g)
qts .3
EBP of 145
Makes it a very well suited choice for a 30-35hz tapped horn
Looking at BCs offereings, we have the tbx100, which has less xmax. response actually looks quite nice in this one. a little bit smoother than the faital, A HAIR more excursion control. it offers equivalent sensitivity, gives up about 2 db in final output.
18 sound on the other hand.... The 9300 is not an option. Low MMD + distortion and a compliant suspension considering it has lower FS than the faital. High vas of almost 80 liters = poor excursion control. Low BL = whacked out response chart, its much more suited to FLHs tuned around 35 with that BL. it does suppossedly have 11mm of klippel verified xmax... but still, the response is not pretty. I didnt check the lw1400, but it doesnt look promising.
After I pay rent this month (gotta whip up a little car sub in order to do that), I'll present my final 2 designs (300L 35hz, 400L 30-32hz), and hopefully proceed with folding. This is my first time folding a design that uses 2 woofers in a line on the horn path, so hopefully I can figure out.
Some interesting points from a couple private conversations I've had.
I always figured dual 12" would have less mech noise than a single 18 in a tapped horn (suspension noise). First hand accounts from my friend who is a Danley dealer notes the suspension noise on the TH812 is VERY noticable at high power, but on the TH221 you can barely hear it. figures. I'm experimenting with baffle/throat combinations that would allow me to put both drivers with magnets facing in, hopefully to avoid mech noise altogether.
Thanks for looking into the other drivers. I have tried simulating other 12's from 18 Sound and the only one I could get to look good was the 12LW1400. BUT I cant get it to the magical 100db sensitivity. 🙁 Best I could do was 96 roughly.
I think it would make sense that the TH812 would be more noisy than the TH221. I think Josh when he tested the 21's said they were very quiet until around 20mm. BUT I guess Danley knew this already also and thats why they installed the 12's magnet inside like you suggested.
I think it would make sense that the TH812 would be more noisy than the TH221. I think Josh when he tested the 21's said they were very quiet until around 20mm. BUT I guess Danley knew this already also and thats why they installed the 12's magnet inside like you suggested.
True but they only installed half the magnets facing inwards, mostly due to the fact that I think its hard to install them both facing inwards while still maintaining proper s2 CSA.
Did I input something wrong?
When adjusting Eg to hit Xmax I was up to 118v to hit Xmax. I know you stated 72v.
When adjusting Eg to hit Xmax I was up to 118v to hit Xmax. I know you stated 72v.
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Chrapladm, its 70v if you wire in parralel, 140v in series (series wiring doubles voltage requirments). this is after filter is applied
I get 59v and 118v roughly for parallel verse series to hit manufacturers stated Xmax. So I must have inputted something different. Either way just trying to follow along.
Will this be a taller cabinet like the TH18 or what will the cabinet dimensions look like?
Curious because I was trying to figure out how Danley did his dual 12.
Will this be a taller cabinet like the TH18 or what will the cabinet dimensions look like?
Curious because I was trying to figure out how Danley did his dual 12.
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