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Old 22nd February 2014, 06:43 PM   #1
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Default Heavy Metal Sub

That's right. A 61 year old metal head.

I want to build an 18" mono sub and need advice. Not even sure what cabinet alignment to start with. I am leaning toward at least a bass reflex or maybe a scoop. I don't think I favor folded horns. I was the desk man in my younger years for a local out-door PA provider. We had 8 (4 per side) EV 15 "W" folded horns for the bass. I recall the people in front of the stage sipping tea while the windows two blocks away were rattling. I feel as though the folded horns may be more of a projection type of box whereas I prefer something more "near-field". I'm looking for the "punch you in the gut and part you hair at the same time" type of sub. Flat response does not interest me. Matter of fact, I would prefer a rock'n kick drum peak designed in.

I need help choosing the correct box first. Then the driver and finally box tuning.
Please go easy on me, it takes me a while to absorb everything! LOL.

Thanks, Al.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 07:06 PM   #2
sine143 is online now sine143  United States
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with 4 subs per side, its likely the reason people stage front were sipping tea because they were smack dab in the middle of power alley. This has little to do with the type of sub, and everything to do with the implementation of the sub stacks.

the biggest issue her is even with a great sub, if your Main speakers are slouches, you lose out on a lot of the midbass (unless you cross the sub high, which *could* work, but generally causes issues). A short horn can work wonders for "Rock'n kick drum peak" although it will do little below that.

Something like half (or even a full) USB sub might do you good. http://www.freespeakerplans.com/imag...b/usbplans.jpg

Easy build, no bigger than your usual 18 (or dual 18 if you build a full one).
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Old 22nd February 2014, 07:23 PM   #3
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Every doubling of distance decreases level by 6db. So unless there's a null in front of the stage, it will be louder up front than way in the back.
There's ways to direct the sound waves from subs, and they work well. Barn doors, mouth extenders etc. Or even digitally if you have an array of subs.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 07:33 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in Bass View Post
I need help choosing the correct box first.
Here subs types with pic from bandpass bose, with full article here
System Guide | TC Sounds
Audio Innovation - by Dan Marx www.danmarx.org
University 3-Way Speaker System Enclosure plans
So Al what are your main speakers/amps. What are you expecting from your system working with the full range, or are you just building subs for the sake of it and because you are having fun.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 07:44 PM   #5
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Well, first off, I was the guy walking the venue with the SPL meter.
Secondly, the EV folded Wbins were not subwoofers.
Thirdly, I'm now sorry I mentioned the stage reference.
Fourthly, please quit beating me up and try to school me. LOL
Fifthly, my low mids are 12" Thiele cabs w/EV12L drivers, my upper mids are Peerless 5" sealed back and the tweets are unknown soft domes.

I feel left out. Did I miss something?

Thanks, Al.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 08:06 PM   #6
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Hey Inductor! Thanks for the links (didn't look at them yet).

We had University upper mid horns on the out door PA. They were huge, 4ft square mouths. We hated placing those on top of the stacks!

Looks like you got your post off before my earlier reply. You can find my junk there.
My amps are old, too.

Phase Linear 700 Series II on bass
Phase Linear 400 DRS on low mid
A couple of choices for the upper mid/tweet passive x-over (was active)

I'm having fun and want to hear some basic +100db Metal!

Thanks, Al.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 08:07 PM   #7
sine143 is online now sine143  United States
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lol, we're not trying to school you, but if the spl meter was reading quieter in the front of the room (near the subs) than it was at the back, then you clearly has placement issues.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 08:11 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Lost in Bass View Post
Fifthly, my low mids are 12" Thiele cabs w/EV12L drivers, my upper mids are Peerless 5" sealed back and the tweets are unknown soft domes.

I feel left out. Did I miss something?

Thanks, Al.
Al,

Yes, back in the bad old days we could not afford to properly align folded horn bass to the rest of the PA, you missed the transition when it became quite affordable and more common.

You also probably missed that excursion has quadrupled on bass drivers compared to the W bins you heard, doubling excursion can allow for 6 dB more output per driver, quadrupling 12 dB more.

Nothing wrong with bass reflex cabs, you just need twice as much power and drivers to achieve the same SPL on your dB meter or feel in your chest, gut or trouser legs.

At one point (1978) I almost went with EV 15Bs in TL cabs, but opted for straight horns (could not afford to properly align folded horn bass to the rest of the PA) then later went to bass reflex (could not fit 45" deep straight horns in many venues), now am very happy with my Keystone subs.

One of them (with enough power) will more than keep up with four EV12" TL cabs with dome mid/high.

Like the suit salesman says, "I guarantee it".

Art
PS
I loved the Phase Linear amps till the output transistors went and ate my favorite speakers, full DC PSU output ...
Using Flame Linear amps, I'd be inclined to go with cheaper drivers than my favorites, (and still use conservative output fuses) but one Lab 12" off each side of the 700 in the Keystone will get you 125 dB of head banging metal, even though the series two has no where near the guts of the "Blue Light" 700s.

Last edited by weltersys; 22nd February 2014 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 08:23 PM   #9
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Outdoors, sine, lets get off that anyway.
Thanks, Al.
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Old 22nd February 2014, 09:07 PM   #10
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Hi Art. Those were the days, body won't allow that much fun anymore!

We used the time alignment features of the Rane X-overs. As I recall, something like Hi's one foot back. Upper mid's 5ft, lower mids 3ft and bass 17ft.

Well, anyway, I can't afford two expensive drivers in a sofisticated box. I'm collecting checks for the government. remember? One 18 will keep me on PBJ's for three months!

Flame Linear LOL haven't heard that in years.

Thanks, Al.
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