I'm Thinking about designing my own cabinets for 2x dayton ultimax 15" subs. This is going to be primarily for Home theater but I will occasionally listen to music as well. I have debated the 18" subs but figure they arn't worth the extra money spent. two 15"s will do more than enough.
I was set on getting the dayton Ultimax's until i stumbled upon a couple threads that talked about stereo Integrity HT line subs and the decent specs those subs are capable of. I looked at a lot of threads about these drivers until I found one thread that said not to drive these drivers past 500w or they will bottom out. I believe I found that from the companies web site in the testing and review link they send you to. Here
So I switched my mind back to the Dayton Ultimax with an 800w RMS. I know that is probably way more than what I expect to run them at but I do care for design quality and who knows maybe I do want to knock down the neighbors house at times!!
I have strongly considered the TC sounds drivers because I know that they sound better than the Dayton Ultimax. but how much "better" are they for almost twice the price? I read again that the SPL/price ratio is perfect for buying a dayton ultimax. I care about more than just high SPL and xmax. I care about quality and sound and everything an audiophile cares about.
What would you guys suggest Dayton or SI HT or TC sounds?
I did run some WinISD calculations and determined that purely based on calculations the Ultimax will perform just as well as the TC sounds.
Picture here
that image are two 12's, two 15's and TC sounds 2x15's all in a 4^3 ft box sealed. the 12 have to have 750w to perform about the same as the 15's where as the 15's can run a lot less power.
I was set on getting the dayton Ultimax's until i stumbled upon a couple threads that talked about stereo Integrity HT line subs and the decent specs those subs are capable of. I looked at a lot of threads about these drivers until I found one thread that said not to drive these drivers past 500w or they will bottom out. I believe I found that from the companies web site in the testing and review link they send you to. Here
So I switched my mind back to the Dayton Ultimax with an 800w RMS. I know that is probably way more than what I expect to run them at but I do care for design quality and who knows maybe I do want to knock down the neighbors house at times!!
I have strongly considered the TC sounds drivers because I know that they sound better than the Dayton Ultimax. but how much "better" are they for almost twice the price? I read again that the SPL/price ratio is perfect for buying a dayton ultimax. I care about more than just high SPL and xmax. I care about quality and sound and everything an audiophile cares about.
What would you guys suggest Dayton or SI HT or TC sounds?
I did run some WinISD calculations and determined that purely based on calculations the Ultimax will perform just as well as the TC sounds.
Picture here
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
that image are two 12's, two 15's and TC sounds 2x15's all in a 4^3 ft box sealed. the 12 have to have 750w to perform about the same as the 15's where as the 15's can run a lot less power.
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The Ultimax 18 is an interesting choice. If you use them in a sealed enclosure they will reach into the high 20's hz -3db. At $270 each, they are 89db efficient and have over 20mm xmax.
The TC sounds 15's, and the rest of the line, can not take any bottoming out as it will dent the cones. The ultimax cones are as tough as it gets.
The TC sounds 15's, and the rest of the line, can not take any bottoming out as it will dent the cones. The ultimax cones are as tough as it gets.
There are many on AVS who run 1100-1250wRMS into each SI HT18 in about 3.5 cubic feet each. I have modelled the same in my thread on this forum (and there should be graphs linked to in it, hopefully) which shows 3.5 cu ft for each driver, and 1250wRMS will see each one reach their c.23mm xmax only under 20Hz, but not rising above it until c.4Hz, even at full input power. They seem to be pretty bulletproof unless you run single-digit Hz sinewves into them.
Read This
Data-Bass
that will give you more information on what the SI HT18 can handle.
I really am leaning towards the Dayton Ultimax 18 or 15 now. for a cheaper shipping price then the SI HT18 they will be hard to beat I think. Parts express ships free over a certain price so I think in the near future I'm going to pull the trigger.
Do you think I should design a passive radiator for the Ultimax 18? that would be effing epic huh
Data-Bass
that will give you more information on what the SI HT18 can handle.
I really am leaning towards the Dayton Ultimax 18 or 15 now. for a cheaper shipping price then the SI HT18 they will be hard to beat I think. Parts express ships free over a certain price so I think in the near future I'm going to pull the trigger.
Do you think I should design a passive radiator for the Ultimax 18? that would be effing epic huh
I bet your happy with your SI i'm sure it a great great sub. I'm just thinking the Dayton will be a little cheaper and can handle a little more. doesn't mean much though if it doesn't sound good. but i'm sure with daytons known quality it won't be a problem. I will make a Thread of my build which ever driver I choose. I would be interested in seeing you guys DIY pictures as well. please post below.
I agree you will be happy with either the 15" or 18" Ultimax.
I have 2 UM15-22's in ~4 cu.ft. sealed enclosures, driven by an iNuke 3000DSP. I don't have measurements to back it up yet, but my ears tell me they're awesome.
I listen to music as much as movies, so they work great for me. Sometimes I wish I had more lower end for movies, and have thought about adding more subs, but it may just be the DIY addiction getting the best of me...
I have 2 UM15-22's in ~4 cu.ft. sealed enclosures, driven by an iNuke 3000DSP. I don't have measurements to back it up yet, but my ears tell me they're awesome.
I listen to music as much as movies, so they work great for me. Sometimes I wish I had more lower end for movies, and have thought about adding more subs, but it may just be the DIY addiction getting the best of me...
you dont need to add more subs, just build a solid low tuned ported enclosure! I use to have 1 18" sub with passive radiator (tuned @18hz), and the output down low was breathtaking in movies! i miss it !! I can only imagine 2 15" in a well designed ported enclosure!!! Youll prolly forget your DIY addiction in the low frequency department!! at least for a good while or until you burn one of them loll
I just bought a Dayton Ultimax 15" i'm going to go with sealed because there aren't too many movies that go into subsonic frequencies. therefor I can use it for both music and movies. It's going to sound amazing. I got the driver for $150 shipped from parts express on a memorial day sale. for that price I couldn't say no. I will start a build thread soon and provide a link. here is a picture to start
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Amp I'm going to drive it with. the guts
https://www.dropbox.com/s/am7t6f47cmmo1tr/20131114_205446.jpg
Dayton Ultimax
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzt8prxczrpjh2g/2014-06-26%2008.18.27.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qv5n5mfh4u421kn/2014-06-26%2008.18.37.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/am7t6f47cmmo1tr/20131114_205446.jpg
Dayton Ultimax
https://www.dropbox.com/s/uzt8prxczrpjh2g/2014-06-26%2008.18.27.jpg
https://www.dropbox.com/s/qv5n5mfh4u421kn/2014-06-26%2008.18.37.jpg
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People build sealed subs when they want to go deeper for movies. Ported subs need subsonic filters. I think you have it backward.
Wrong Sealed subs don't go as low as Ported Subs. the Dayton Ultimax 15" has an F3 at 35hz sealed and an F3 ported at 22hz. Do you know anything about subwoofers?
Ultimax F3
Or you can go check out one of the best manufacturers of subwoofers SVS subs and their little description for you.
SVS Ported vs. Sealed
do research before you just post
Ultimax F3
Or you can go check out one of the best manufacturers of subwoofers SVS subs and their little description for you.
SVS Ported vs. Sealed
do research before you just post
didn't say anything about subsonic filters now did I. you said
People build sealed subs when they want to go deeper for movies
that is wrong.
the correct answer is people build ported subs or IB subs for movies to reach lower end. i understand the need for filters so that your subs don't over extend themselves and ruin the drivers but the simple answer that people build sealed subs to go deeper for movies is just wrong in every way.
People build sealed subs when they want to go deeper for movies
that is wrong.
the correct answer is people build ported subs or IB subs for movies to reach lower end. i understand the need for filters so that your subs don't over extend themselves and ruin the drivers but the simple answer that people build sealed subs to go deeper for movies is just wrong in every way.
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Not necessarily wrong!!
People build Sealed sub's because it is convenient to do so due to the size of the cabinet (simplicity) and the required filtering to extend the low end is usually built in to the plate amps that they use, providing your driver can handle the extra Xmax.
The other reason to use a sealed is that the have a superior transient response compared to that of a ported system.
Ported system can sound very boomy and muddy.
However this can greatly vary depending on the tuning of a ported system as well.
Actually either type of configuration can go as low, it just depends on how you go about it, and, what your driver is capable of.
I am not trying to start a what is best war here as the above is/should be common knowledge.
But do be more specific about what is wrong with a statement when doing so, as there were two parts to the sentence as a whole.
I found nothing wrong with the description.
I have not read the whole thread to know why it was stated "I think you have it backward." !!
Sorry for my interference!!
I run in to such issues all of the time and it is why I make such lengthy posts now, too describe everything in full detail, So that all is understood without any misconceptions.
Not because I like to type.
Anyhow, I really like the spec's of that new Dayton Ultimax 15" sub and I am very interested in seeing the results of your project!!!
Good Luck!!!
FWIW, Carry on.
jer
People build Sealed sub's because it is convenient to do so due to the size of the cabinet (simplicity) and the required filtering to extend the low end is usually built in to the plate amps that they use, providing your driver can handle the extra Xmax.
The other reason to use a sealed is that the have a superior transient response compared to that of a ported system.
Ported system can sound very boomy and muddy.
However this can greatly vary depending on the tuning of a ported system as well.
Actually either type of configuration can go as low, it just depends on how you go about it, and, what your driver is capable of.
I am not trying to start a what is best war here as the above is/should be common knowledge.
But do be more specific about what is wrong with a statement when doing so, as there were two parts to the sentence as a whole.
I found nothing wrong with the description.
I have not read the whole thread to know why it was stated "I think you have it backward." !!
Sorry for my interference!!
I run in to such issues all of the time and it is why I make such lengthy posts now, too describe everything in full detail, So that all is understood without any misconceptions.
Not because I like to type.
Anyhow, I really like the spec's of that new Dayton Ultimax 15" sub and I am very interested in seeing the results of your project!!!
Good Luck!!!
FWIW, Carry on.
jer
I would say that the main reason people go with sealed subs is because of the simplicity.
Good, large, ported subs usually have their tuning around 15Hz and then a high pass slightly below this to stop things blowing up. This will give you maximal output, in room, down to a bit below 20Hz and will then give some useful output a little below this.
Ported subs are far more efficient than a sealed sub could ever be, but they do unload at very low frequencies. Some peoples idea of good HT bass is having extension down to something ridiculous like 5Hz. If you want to do this then you need to go IB as no ported box is going to tune that low.
For normal usage though a properly designed ported system will trounce any sealed system for shear output capability. This gets increasingly better as the driver size increases as the port tuning naturally goes a little lower. You then end up with the driver unloading at lower and lower frequencies, such that the high pass can get down to around 10Hz. You end up with really good extension and SPL capabilities down there, without needing EQ or tons of power.
To the comment about ported subs transient response is a bit of a non issue. If your ported sub is designed correctly then the tuning frequency is going to be significantly lower than any music signal being passed through it. For all intents and purposes the sub will play like a sealed sub for music, but have the capability to really rattle the walls if called upon.
Attached is an Ultimax 18 in a 500 litres box, tuned to around 17Hz, with a 4th order high pass at 6Hz in place. This hardly impacts on the subs low frequency performance, but keeps it from smacking itself silly if some real infra bass comes along. It takes around 500 watts @ 8 ohms to get there, so we're pretty much at its 1000 watt limit into 4 ohms. Still, you're getting 120dB in room at 20Hz with very useful output down to around 14Hz.
Sealed isn't bad, but to hit the same raw SPL you'd need two drivers. I'd still want to high pass the sealed sub mind you.
Sure lots of people would say, I'd rather buy two drivers and not bother with the ported system, you could also go dual opposed push/pull with it, but for shear performance, you cannot beat the ported/PR sub.
Good, large, ported subs usually have their tuning around 15Hz and then a high pass slightly below this to stop things blowing up. This will give you maximal output, in room, down to a bit below 20Hz and will then give some useful output a little below this.
Ported subs are far more efficient than a sealed sub could ever be, but they do unload at very low frequencies. Some peoples idea of good HT bass is having extension down to something ridiculous like 5Hz. If you want to do this then you need to go IB as no ported box is going to tune that low.
For normal usage though a properly designed ported system will trounce any sealed system for shear output capability. This gets increasingly better as the driver size increases as the port tuning naturally goes a little lower. You then end up with the driver unloading at lower and lower frequencies, such that the high pass can get down to around 10Hz. You end up with really good extension and SPL capabilities down there, without needing EQ or tons of power.
To the comment about ported subs transient response is a bit of a non issue. If your ported sub is designed correctly then the tuning frequency is going to be significantly lower than any music signal being passed through it. For all intents and purposes the sub will play like a sealed sub for music, but have the capability to really rattle the walls if called upon.
Attached is an Ultimax 18 in a 500 litres box, tuned to around 17Hz, with a 4th order high pass at 6Hz in place. This hardly impacts on the subs low frequency performance, but keeps it from smacking itself silly if some real infra bass comes along. It takes around 500 watts @ 8 ohms to get there, so we're pretty much at its 1000 watt limit into 4 ohms. Still, you're getting 120dB in room at 20Hz with very useful output down to around 14Hz.
Sealed isn't bad, but to hit the same raw SPL you'd need two drivers. I'd still want to high pass the sealed sub mind you.
Sure lots of people would say, I'd rather buy two drivers and not bother with the ported system, you could also go dual opposed push/pull with it, but for shear performance, you cannot beat the ported/PR sub.
Attachments
curveball -
Can you explain your logic behind your argument? I don't understand your reasoning.
I am with the other guys posting on this thread - sealed offers a greater bandwidth and can produce lower notes than (most) ported because there is no 'tuning frequency' below which the driver flaps around producing very little noise but risking damage, as is the case in ported. You could build a ported box tuned to 5Hz, yes, and it wouldn't need that much power, probably, but it will be enormous. Sealed will get you that 5Hz, no worries, and in a smaller box, but as you point out, it would be quieter as there is no output contribution from a port, hence people apply more powerful amps and also electronic EQ (e.g. Linkwitz Transformer, MiniDSP, Bassis) to boost levels.
Can you explain your logic behind your argument? I don't understand your reasoning.
I am with the other guys posting on this thread - sealed offers a greater bandwidth and can produce lower notes than (most) ported because there is no 'tuning frequency' below which the driver flaps around producing very little noise but risking damage, as is the case in ported. You could build a ported box tuned to 5Hz, yes, and it wouldn't need that much power, probably, but it will be enormous. Sealed will get you that 5Hz, no worries, and in a smaller box, but as you point out, it would be quieter as there is no output contribution from a port, hence people apply more powerful amps and also electronic EQ (e.g. Linkwitz Transformer, MiniDSP, Bassis) to boost levels.
It's not that a ported box would need to be huge in order to do it. It would need to be huge in order to do it efficiently. You could drop the sensitivity of the driver down from say the 86 that the UM18 is, to say 75dB and probably end up with a driver that would tune down to around 6Hz in a similar sized box and with a decent amount of power give you decent output down low.
This isn't the problem. The trouble here is that it's largely pointless. Drivers don't typically exist to do this because there is extremely little demand for them.
Shaking the room with sound waves below 20Hz for HT is a very inefficient way of attempting to do this. A loudspeakers primary job is to create sound waves that we can *hear*, they are terribly poor energy conversion devices, with pathetic efficiencies, otherwise.
For things that you want to be able to feel, rather than hear, like T Rex stomps, you may as well go the sensible route and install some bass shakers to shake your seat directly instead of trying to do it through the air.
As an example though here is the Ultimax 18 driver with 1kg of added mass. A very crude way to do this but it does push the sensitivity down and allows you to tune it in a semi decent way to 5hz. Nothing incredible mine you. 2000 litre box and a little under 100 watts to hit xmax. Still we're getting some 92dB at 5Hz.
Putting the UM 18 into 2000 litres sealed however gives this.
A little over 85dB at 5Hz and it takes about 140 watts to get this far.
The ported box wins.
If companies wanted to produce drivers that would be optimised such that they could be tuned to 5Hz in a ported box then ported would beat sealed every time, it's just that these drivers don't typically exist.
This isn't the problem. The trouble here is that it's largely pointless. Drivers don't typically exist to do this because there is extremely little demand for them.
Shaking the room with sound waves below 20Hz for HT is a very inefficient way of attempting to do this. A loudspeakers primary job is to create sound waves that we can *hear*, they are terribly poor energy conversion devices, with pathetic efficiencies, otherwise.
For things that you want to be able to feel, rather than hear, like T Rex stomps, you may as well go the sensible route and install some bass shakers to shake your seat directly instead of trying to do it through the air.
As an example though here is the Ultimax 18 driver with 1kg of added mass. A very crude way to do this but it does push the sensitivity down and allows you to tune it in a semi decent way to 5hz. Nothing incredible mine you. 2000 litre box and a little under 100 watts to hit xmax. Still we're getting some 92dB at 5Hz.
Putting the UM 18 into 2000 litres sealed however gives this.
A little over 85dB at 5Hz and it takes about 140 watts to get this far.
The ported box wins.
If companies wanted to produce drivers that would be optimised such that they could be tuned to 5Hz in a ported box then ported would beat sealed every time, it's just that these drivers don't typically exist.
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Hey buddies. So Like I said I purchased the Dayton Ultimax 15" . just one for now i'm at $230 bucks and I'm almost done. All I have left is to glue the front of the box on add terminals already purchased and paint the thing. you can follow my build over here
DIY DAYTON ULTIMAX BUILD
DIY DAYTON ULTIMAX BUILD
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