The Lab12 PA Subwoofer Smack Down/Death Match - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 4th February 2014, 12:12 PM   #21
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Not really a ton of Xmax from this 12", but $180.
Lots of BL, Fs of 54Hz may be okay for a 40hz tapped horn.

B&C 12FW76 12" Professional Woofer 8 Ohm | 294-5951
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Old 4th February 2014, 12:15 PM   #22
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Fs of 44Hz. Same 8mm Xmax. Decent BL. Big 4" coil
B&C 12PS100 12" Woofer | 294-665

$217.
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Old 4th February 2014, 12:17 PM   #23
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None of those are for 25hz horns but may work well for 40hz and up.
Something the size of the TH-mini would be good for those. (Haven't run sims just guessing).
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Old 4th February 2014, 02:01 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
1) EQ generally corrects phase shifts associated with a design's frequency response deviation, the phase response after EQ is almost always flatter than before.
Ooooh Art, I was about to personally challenge you to a death match over this point. But I decided it might be wise to do a bit of research before I embarrass myself.

The phase shift idea I was first exposed to by a nationally known acoustics engineer/recording studio designer back in the 1980's. It reinforced my previous experiences designing home stereo speakers and PA tops, as the flatter I could get the frequency response straight out of the box, the better they sounded to me.

The best evidence I could find to support your position was "myth 6" of this: Exposing Equalizer Mythology

I am not totally convinced either way. There is a big difference in striving for a "pure" sound in a recording studio versus a PA based dance party in a gymnasium with horrible acoustics. Since you used the terms "generally" and "almost always" in your comments, I guess both of us will live to see another day.

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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
2) I find the full size Keystone easier to move than the half size BR cabinets.
To me, this is a personal preference. You seem to be doing this on a professional level, and you probably have assistant with dolly's to do the grunt work. For me, if I have to life something over 50 lbs., my old heart get beating pretty rapidly.

It seems I may be the only one interested in comparing these various Lab12 designs, but I would like to see this post function like a product test to give designers feedback on what people like/dislike about their designs. Personally, I hope to use it to gain design knowledge for myself.

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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
3)Better to have it and not use it, than to not have it and (have your kids and grand kids) miss it .
Very good point. But that is also a personal point - someone may prefer a slight SPL boost over a low frequency extension. But I think I will take your advice though for what ever I end up building. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
4) You stated in #2 "The additional cost would not be a major concern to me".
That is another personal preference. I have a fair amount of money but am pretty frugal. But some young guy, making minimum wage, would have to work about a week to buy a Lab12.

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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
There are drivers that are far better than the Lab 12 available some 14 years after it was introduced, even in terms of dollar per output, especially if a 40 Hz F3 is all you want.
You are right again. But the benefit of the Lab12's long illustrious life is that there are many subwoofers built with it to compare.

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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Having recycled the drivers through many designs, and compared them to better drivers now available, I probably won't be purchasing more of them.
I probably won't either, but Amazon sells them for $140-$150 every few months, and they are still a very capable driver.
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Old 4th February 2014, 02:24 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spenserh View Post
I've been a lurker on DIY Audio for a long time, finally decided to sign up and post.

The picture of the Dual Lab 12 BR is a picture of my construction, I was actually quite proud of my achievement as it was my second speaker build - the first being a BFM T30 that fell short of expectations. I'm up to four cabs now, added a few tweaks to existing cabs over time including caster boards, feet and pole mounts but I'm not sure I'm going to go past four cabs.

The cabs sound great, material cost is fairly low and the build is straightforward, I'd recommend this build for anybody that needs to get their feet wet in speaker building. I'd also recommend this build for anybody that needs low extension but doesn't need high SPL
Hey spenserh, welcome. It sound like you are pretty experienced for a lurker. Don't worry about making stupid comments here, that is my job!

That was your cabinet huh? Wow, nice job. It is great that this was the post that got you to start posting here. It is also interesting that you mentioned the BFM T30. That is another cab I found when I was researching Lab12 designs. That may be a future contender if the post continues. It would be GREAT to hear you input on the difference between these two designs.

Those were some great comments you made on your real-life experiences with the Dual Lab12 BR cabs. What made you choose to build these particular cabs over others? Are there any other comments you care make about this design and how it has worked out for you? Thanks
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Old 4th February 2014, 06:26 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by grec13 View Post
There are drivers that are far better than the Lab 12 available some 14 years after it was introduced, even in terms of dollar per output, especially if a 40 Hz F3 is all you want.

Welter, which drivers could you recommend?
Thank you.
B&C 15TBW100, B&C 18TBW100.

But this thread imposed a Lab 12 PA handicap, so they are not allowed .
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Old 4th February 2014, 06:38 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by spenserh View Post
Here in lies my eternal debate, it will cost twice as much money (more drivers and more amps) and substantially more pack space to - possibly - gain 4 or 5Hz of extension, and I still might be down a few dB in max output.

Is it worth it?

Some time with Audacity and my music library tells me that for 90% of it, probably not as most of the heavy dance music is in the 35-50Hz range, but there is that 10% that shows significant content in the 30-35Hz area.
Let's see-, 10% of your music could use a 1/6th octave extension that no one will notice (except you, if you happen to be comparing it with some GK Ultraphones or a computer), but it costs you double the truck and storage space, driver and amp count.
Most would not find that "worth it".

It took me a while to make the decision that a 35 Hz TH was "good enough" for portable PA use, but in 40 years have never been more happy with any cabinet in terms of output, size and cost per performance.
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Old 4th February 2014, 06:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by DHAA View Post
To me, this is a personal preference. You seem to be doing this on a professional level, and you probably have assistant with dolly's to do the grunt work. For me, if I have to life something over 50 lbs., my old heart get beating pretty rapidly.
The top cabinets I use weigh 50 pounds, that is about as much as I feel comfortable lifting over my head, though I wheel 5 of those in and out of a 5x8 trailer in one trip.

I generally do all the two wheel dolly work on the PA cabinets I use presently, the rest of the system is on wheels and stagehands (God willing..) push that in.
At any rate, when you grow up with top cabinets weighing as much as 440 pounds, 150 pound subs (which are seldom lifted) seem like patio furniture to move, even for a 1956 model 150 pound guy .
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Old 10th February 2014, 11:07 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by DHAA View Post
Hey spenserh, welcome. It sound like you are pretty experienced for a lurker. Don't worry about making stupid comments here, that is my job!

That was your cabinet huh? Wow, nice job. It is great that this was the post that got you to start posting here. It is also interesting that you mentioned the BFM T30. That is another cab I found when I was researching Lab12 designs. That may be a future contender if the post continues. It would be GREAT to hear you input on the difference between these two designs.

Those were some great comments you made on your real-life experiences with the Dual Lab12 BR cabs. What made you choose to build these particular cabs over others? Are there any other comments you care make about this design and how it has worked out for you? Thanks
Thanks for the kind welcome

My biggest issue with the Tuba subs are that they don't meet the hype. It sounded good, got (fairly) loud for it's size, but it didn't best a single 18 BR as claimed by the designer, and it was a tough build for a beginner, after firing up the first one I wasn't inclined to invest the effort to build more.

Art's Dual Lab 12 sounds good, and the build is straightforward, it's limited by it's efficiency and power rating which is relatively low by modern standards. Again, it didn't best the mentioned single 18 reflex in max spl, but it sounded noticeably "nicer" - nice enough that a lampie complimented them without being questioned.
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Old 10th February 2014, 11:09 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
Let's see-, 10% of your music could use a 1/6th octave extension that no one will notice (except you, if you happen to be comparing it with some GK Ultraphones or a computer), but it costs you double the truck and storage space, driver and amp count.
Most would not find that "worth it".

It took me a while to make the decision that a 35 Hz TH was "good enough" for portable PA use, but in 40 years have never been more happy with any cabinet in terms of output, size and cost per performance.
I think you probably hit the nail on the head Art, the extra extension would be nothing more than an ego boost!
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