Suggestions for small (8"/10") subwoofer driver? - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Subwoofers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10th December 2003, 01:53 AM   #1
netgeek is offline netgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Coast USA
Default Suggestions for small (8"/10") subwoofer driver?

I'm planning to build some modest dipoles to be used in a small room based on Linkwitz's suggested configuration (www.linkwitzlab.com/proto.htm). I'd like to build some fairly small subwoofers to complement these in an attempt to cover the range from approximately 20Hz to 150Hz. These would basically act as speaker stands for the dipole panels (~12.5" x 15") and I'd like them to be fairly compact as well (i.e. short depth). I figure that the space constraints will limit the volume to around 1 to 1.5 cu. ft. max. - using a sealed enclosure.

If any of you can recommend small subwoofer drivers that you've had good experiences with it would be most appreciated! I've looked at (for example) the Peerless 830452 XLS 10" which they claim can get to an F3 of 20Hz in only 1.24 cu. ft. (using their matching passive radiator) - but this is way over the budget I have for what is supposed to be a modest setup used at lower listening levels - and primarily for music, not home theater (although HT use would be nice). In other words, the output level requirements are not very high. So, I'm down to the following rough requirements:

Cost: Around US$40 to US$70 per driver
Can reach fairly low in 1 to 1.5 sq. ft. enclosure (using active EQ with bass extension compensation).
Can be driven with approximately 100 to 120 watts (8 ohms) with some peaks to about 180 watts possible.
Compact - i.e. 8" ideal, 10" okay, 12" probably too much....


Any suggestions?

Dayton Quatro? Peerless HDS? Madisound Sledgehammer? Others? Any and all pointers/suggestions most appreciated!

Thanks!

Bill
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 03:18 AM   #2
usekgb is offline usekgb  United States
diyAudio Member
 
usekgb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, USA
I've modeled the Eminence Lab12 driver in a 1 cu ft sealed box with a Linkwitz Transform, and gotten pretty good results. You need about 350 watts though to get it all the way down to 20 Hz. If you were to have one of these on each side, I bet the bass would be quite impressive.

Cheers,
Zach
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 12:35 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Monopole or dipole sub?

If it's dipole, I have seen a dipole with the classic Peerless 12" sub which looked pretty good, but as a monopole this sub needs a fairly large box. The Peerless 10" CSX looks like a good choice. You can get a 12" high excursion driver like the Shiva/Peerless/Dayton to go low in a 1 cu ft sealed box with eq, but with cheaper/smaller drivers your output will be limited. With your aims I'd go with an 8" or 10" in a moderately sized vented box.

Perhaps you might start with the 10" Peerless CSX in a vented box. If it is too large, you might consider the 8" version or perhaps the XLS 8" which is designed to work in a small box.

Considering the depth required behind your dipoles, you should have plenty of depth to work with to make a sub bigger than 1 cu ft. If width is an issue, you might make the sub side firing, but don't cross it too high in that case (pref below 120 Hz)

hope this helps,
Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 07:12 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Germany
The CSX257 might have large nominal linear excursion, but looking at the rather soft membrane and the rather small surround, I think there will be strange flexing phenoma if you were to really use the +/- 9 mm linear travel. Besides, the only venting is holes in the cone to vent the space beneath the dust cap, no pole or spider vent, so it is not among the most quiet.

I had been planning to use Vifa M25WO47 coated paper cone drivers. They only have half the excursion of the Peerless, but at this level, distortion and wind noise is low, however you need 8 of them to make up for the low travel. Nice thing is that the basket is pretty flat, so you can fit two in a W-baffle that is only 25 cm wide.

I have been thinking about using more modern drivers, so I might have eight of those beauties for sale...


Oh, there is a Visaton 8 inch, TIW200XS, glas fibre cone, enormous linear travel, vents in pole piece and gap, vented spider. Is supposed to be absolutely quiet running at 20 Hz at full excursion. But then, I'd not really use an 8" for a dipole.

Eric
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 11:48 PM   #5
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
According to Linkwitz, dipoles exhibit "suck in" at resonance, just as vented boxes do. To avoid this, you need a symmetric magnetic field. This is accomplished by either a shorting ring, (Faraday ring) or an extended pole piece.

"Suck in" is where the speaker actually moves out of it's cneter position and travels all the way to the end of it's excursion, wher it tries to move back and forth from there. Of course, being already at the end of the line, it really can move in only one direction, and half the waveform it is trying to produce gets sheared off.

Vifa is the sister company of Peerless, which mostly has symmetrical fields on it's products-not all. Also, in it's literature, Vifa mentions it's cast magnesium baskets as cutting down on the magnetic field, and on some woofers, it mentions "optimized for long excursion"-"suck-in" tends to occur at points of high excursion.

So Vifa seems to hint at symmetric magnetic field, but never outright declares it has one.

Danish Sound Technology, the parent company of Vifa, Peerless and Scan Speak, says it does not take Emails from consumers. It refers tech questions to it's distributors.

I have already Emailed Madisound, normally an excellent outfilt. They have not responded.

Come to think of it, I think I'll Email Parts Express on this issue right now.

If anyone knows that Vifa does not exhibit "suck-in"-also called "oil-canning"-please let us know. It would be nice to have an alternative to Peerless on this issue.
__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous
  Reply With Quote
Old 10th December 2003, 11:54 PM   #6
Wizard of Kelts
diyAudio Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, The Nutmeg State
PS: I think that netgeek plans to use this sub in a ported box. The dipole is for higher ranges.
__________________
"A friend will help you move. A really good friend will help you move a body."
-Anonymous
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 01:55 AM   #7
netgeek is offline netgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Coast USA
First off - many thanks to those who have responded! Great info so far. But I'm thinking I should be more specific about my goals - and also admit that I'm "waffling" somewhat, so here goes:

Linkwitz described some fairly small and inexpensive dipoles as a way to experiment and "test the waters". His suggestion comprised using an 8" driver (Vifa P21WO-20-08) along with a tweeter (Vifa D26TG-35-06) mounted on a small (12.5" x 15") baffle. Total depth is just over 3.00" or so. So far, so good. The caution that he gave was that the output levels that could be achieved were limited (not a problem in smaller rooms, however). The other constraint mentioned was that the lower frequency response was limited because trying to equalize the 8" driver to produce lower response would quickly run into the excursion limits and would be pointless. The implication seemed to be that THIS was the limiting factor to achieving greater SPLs.

So, figuring I could live with the lower output levels for my needs (small room, etc.) I wondered about how to extend the design to produce a "full-range" (albeit limited output) speaker. In this case I define "full-range" as extending down to approximately 30Hz minimum, with 20Hz being ideal (not accounting for room gain).

I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that the way to do this would be to graft on a small subwoofer and I also assumed that I would need either a sealed enclosure (to keep it small) or a vented enclosure (to lower the F3). The problem is that we're now back to a monopole configuration - and the point of doing the dipole in the first place was to minimize room effects and gain some of the advantages of a "planar" configuration. To correct this - and return to a dipole configuration - seems to involve using some major-league drivers (in multiples!) and the cost starts to go up exponentially...

But, I'm still interested in looking at the dipole configuration for the bass IF I can figure a way to keep the cost down. I'm wondering if using a SINGLE driver would be worth it and have looked at the following as a starting point:

Peerless CSC-X - 850146 - 10"
(Fs=22.6, Qts=.35, Vas=144.4, xmax=+/- 9mm, Power=200W)

Peerless CC - 831727 - 10"
(Fs=22.3, Qts=.34, Vas=136.2, xmax=+/- 9mm, Power=220W)

Of course, there are many others, but these are low cost. I'm wondering if they would be a good match for the other drivers (specified above) or if it would really require two of them (?)..... given that we're trying to cover a range from approximately 20-30Hz to approximately 100Hz while matching (roughly) the power output of the two other drivers.

I can already see that it's going to take ALOT more work, and ALOT more $$$ to get this done.....

Regards,

Bill
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 02:13 AM   #8
netgeek is offline netgeek  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: East Coast USA
Forgot to add:

ALOT more work is not a problem - got the test equipment, got the time, got the motivation....

ALOT more $$$ is a lesser problem - been "outsourced" (hence the extra time available) and I'm willing to tap into the "beer fund" if need be......
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 03:18 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
paulspencer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Bill,

Here is a link that might interest you:

Dirt Cheap Dipoles

Now for the bass. A cheap and simple option, which you might start with, is to use the CSX in a vented box and use it as a stand on either side for your dipoles. Stepping the budget up, you might go with a sealed sub with the Peerless 12" XLS driver following the Thor design.

The Peerless 12" classic subwoofer driver is a good one for dipole I from what I have seen, and is affordable. Here is an example:

Contrapunt dipole sub

If I were you, I'd use the Stryke drivers that you were looking at for your other speakers and see how they go. Use them with the classic Peerless 12" (2 per side) and add a Linkwitz Thor sub if you want to get a little extra depth (preferebly used below 40 Hz to go with a dipole).

cheers,
Paul
  Reply With Quote
Old 11th December 2003, 04:05 AM   #10
Jhovis is offline Jhovis  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Atlanta
I'm going to be building two subwoofers in a 1.6 cu-ft sealed box. I'm using the Peerless 850146 10" Woofer. They are $63.60 at Parts Express.

This will help you determine your box dimensions: http://www.loudspeakers101.com/Sound.htm
__________________
jeff
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
looking for a small 2" or 3" driver with poor bass response space-cake Full Range 3 27th December 2007 01:16 AM
Small subwoofer drivers like 5" Tangband Tenson Multi-Way 10 25th August 2006 05:27 AM
WTB: a small 8" or 10" subwoofer justpoor Swap Meet 0 26th February 2006 09:05 AM
Suggestions wanted- 10" Subwoofers for very small bandpass enclosures. treedog Car Audio 6 16th January 2005 05:17 AM
suggestions; looking for shallow 10 or 12" woofer to work in small sealed box zuki Multi-Way 6 1st April 2004 06:21 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:19 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2