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Old 26th April 2013, 06:00 AM   #1
Trackzilla is offline Trackzilla  United States
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Join Date: May 2009
Default latest study in excess

Here is my latest purpose built sub idea for a local club, I'd love to have some opinions as to whether I'm missing anything.

First some background info:
The room is two floors that make a 50'w x 40'D x 22' tall box, with a stage centered on the back wall of the bottom floor. There's a 3/4 wraparound balcony that is 10' deep on the sides and 20' deep in the front opposite the stage. each floor has full service bars occupying basically 5' of depth. The stage has 18.5" of internal height, it is 1/2 of an octagon, 8' deep, 16' wide. Nutshell: It's an acoustics clusterfuck.
Currently there are 2 EV QRx118s under the stage powered by a bridged QSC RMX2450.
The club regularly rents 4 CV T36/750 and 2 QSC PL236 to augment LF when they have import DJs, mostly EDM. This gets them plenty of bass on the lower level, but those boxes run out of gas on the lowest registers of the program material, and occupy 18 precious sq ft of their limited floor...additionally, the balcony mainly feels the LF through their feet.

(for those wondering, M/H support on lower level is 2 biamped EV QRx 212/75, and upper level has 2 EAW 5164, behind the EVs are 2 more of the EAW as sidefill)

So, the goals are to provide a flat stupid level of very deep LF in the lower level without decimating their floorspace, and to give the upper level some midbass/high sub support to balance the seismic disturbance it's floor will pass to the audience.

My proposed solution is 3 of the box described below. One centered under the stage, the other two standing against the wall on either side of the stage (obviously modified to have a side exit). They will each be loaded with 4 TCSounds Epic12 and powered by one channel of an FB10000Q (4 channels, 2100w/ch @ 4Ω, 2500 @ 2Ω). The current EV subs will go upstairs and run from the 4th channel of the Lab.

The pink wedges of filled space I thought I'd just make with pink styrofoam & then glass over, simple construction with extra rigidity as a bonus. I'm still trying to decide on a best way to make the shallow angle in l2-l3...maybe a butt joint with a lamination of glass on each side?

I'm showing the curve for just the 2 cabs that would be against the back wall with the amp at full output...

Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20hz quad epic12.jpg (157.0 KB, 1027 views)
File Type: jpg quad12 1036L.jpg (149.3 KB, 997 views)

Last edited by Trackzilla; 26th April 2013 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 26th April 2013, 12:47 PM   #2
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: amsterdam
if you use high densety foam(roof foam) its not neccesery to put glass over it.
ive used it for corner fillings in a bass horn.
i think the bass wil be epic
edit/imo the differnce between foam or no foam wil be marginal,or a bit in favor of the no foam.
make s3 slightly bigger and see the differnce.
one good thing about music ,when it hit you feel no pain.
so hit me with music
. hr driver db

Last edited by epa; 26th April 2013 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 26th April 2013, 03:07 PM   #3
turbodawg is offline turbodawg
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Looks sick.

- I don't think you're going to have enough grunt in the kick drum area 80-200hz between these and the EV tops. May have to consider a kick bin with these.

- How does a compareable bandpass horn or normal front loaded horn look vs. this? You will get better phase response and much cleaner requency extension up into the kick range.

- What sort of processor will you use to delay your tops to time align with these subs?

- Seems like you might be slightly underpowering these @ 4 ohms for each cabinet, 2000w rms rated, fed with an amp that maxes out at 2100w? I would prefer to see something capable of least 3000w RMS into each of these cabs.

- Why the epic 12? Why not a 15", and why not a pro driver?

Last edited by turbodawg; 26th April 2013 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 26th April 2013, 04:04 PM   #4
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Originally Posted by Trackzilla View Post
The pink wedges of filled space I thought I'd just make with pink styrofoam & then glass over, simple construction with extra rigidity as a bonus. I'm still trying to decide on a best way to make the shallow angle in l2-l3...maybe a butt joint with a lamination of glass on each side?
The styrofoam idea seems like a ton of extra work, I'd simply make the cabinet trapezoidal if it needs that angle.

Looks like they will really hump down low!
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Old 26th April 2013, 08:11 PM   #5
m R g S r is offline m R g S r  United States
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I'm not sure, but is there enough area in the throat with it firing agains the back of the driver like that?
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Old 27th April 2013, 04:37 PM   #6
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Location: Texas
Hi Trackzilla,

You should be able to get comparable performance using a 3-segment Hornresp model, save about 100L internal volume, and have an easier construction. Use lots of bracing. Don't worry too much about the peaks and valleys in the bottom of the passband, from looking at Danley's models it looks like plus minus 2-3dB should be fine.

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Old 28th April 2013, 09:18 PM   #7
Trackzilla is offline Trackzilla  United States
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Join Date: May 2009
Thanks for the responses, my weekends are just one show after another, so I couldn't return here 'til today.

epa: I like the roof foam idea, I'll look into that. I agree the difference is nominal in constricting S3, but it seemed to bring up the 35 Hz-ish up by a dB or two particularly when I looked at the max response. It is a small enough difference that I'll likely try one with & one without & compare.

turbodawg: The room typically runs bands on Fri/Sat, and DJs (mostly EDM) on Tue/Thurs, Karaoke on Wed. As is stands before the proposed upgrades, the two EV 118 are the only house LF. They have proven to meet the clubs expectations for band use, we'll definitely be able to exceed that post upgrade. It looked to me that a front loaded horn would have to be way huge to get me down to 20Hz, any smaller would roll off, much like the T36 that we rent to them for the EDM shows (the house considers them enough, but they also seem to find it acceptable to kill one a month despite our best efforts to keep them appropriately limited & Lowpassed, I don't). House processing is a Presonus 24 ch board/DBX Zone Pro/EV DX38/Altodrive 2.4...so I'll have the processing horsepower to tweak the various subs discretely to make it all line up & tame the occasional spike. Power looked to me to be close enough as it's enough to bring the cabs to Xmax in the lowest registers, will physically fit in their rack (unfortunately also a consideration), and is inside the budget. I played with lots of drivers & models, did get something that was close to this with dual Lab15s, but it was going to take 6 cabinets, and more space from the club. I found with a bit of tweaking a similar result can be achieved with the Lab12 or the Dayton UM12-22. The TC just seemed to edge those two out as I played with the modelling.

weltersys: I hoped to keep the rectangular exterior for visual purposes, with the roof foam/no filling suggestion from epa, I think that got acceptably easy. I'm still not sure about how to easily accomplish the shallow bend between the baffle plate & the rest of l2-3.

mRgSr: I am a bit worried about that as well, I just couldn't wrap my head around how to define the measurements...so I guessed In my defense, I rationalized as follows: The cone on one side will provide extra space that the magnet on the other would somewhat more than fill. The thickness of the plywood would add a bit more back since the drivers are mounted from the other side (it goes the other way at S4). And armed with that, I just checked to make sure my predictions wouldn't go unacceptably ugly if S1, S2, & S4 were off by a little bit...I would love for someone to explain to me how to actually figure out the driver occlusion for real.

tb46: Hrmmmm...got a rough I can look at?

My limitations are pretty evil considering my objectives. The space beside the stage limits me to 42x90 due to bar proximity and balcony, and to fit under the stage we have to be less than 18" on the other box. I was going to accomplish the 90" dimension on those 2 cabinets by folding the baffle/mouth section 90 degrees & laminating additional ply to the exterior top, effectively making a small step along the wall at the edge of the stage out of it. Sonically, our target was defined by the output of the 4x T36 we rent to them, they hit 144dB at rated power in the midbass...I intend to extend basically that same output level all the way down so the EDM guys can break glassware instead of subs.

BTW: The bar has already put a 1/2" lip on the front of all of their shelves after the first show they rented rig from us...I told them to before, but they had to learn it the hard way.

Last edited by Trackzilla; 28th April 2013 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 29th April 2013, 03:56 PM   #8
turbodawg is offline turbodawg
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Sounds awesome! Did you look at any types of designs like a bandpass horn (T36's appear to be BPH's) or bandpass/TH combo such as the cubo's? Do you think you'll get enough kick out of the tops alone....?
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Old 29th April 2013, 04:04 PM   #9
AndrewT is offline AndrewT  Scotland
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What happens to the other drivers, if one driver of the four fails to open circuit VC?
regards Andrew T.
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Old 29th April 2013, 04:08 PM   #10
just a guy is offline just a guy  Canada
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Originally Posted by Trackzilla View Post
Here is my latest purpose built sub idea for a local club, I'd love to have some opinions as to whether I'm missing anything...

I noticed this a few days ago but I didn't have time to really look until now. It appears you are missing a lot of things.

1. We don't usually sim in 1 pi unless we have a corner available. (Corner loading is technically .5 pi but you will never get the full theoretical benefit that the sim shows.) If you have a very solid concrete wall and the mouth is firing into the corner floor/wall junction you might justifiably use 1 pi but in this case (unless I'm mistaken) you don't have a really good case for 1 pi.

2. Your sim uses 91.65 volts. As shown, your sim appears to be about 4 mm past xmax with this amount of power.

3. The only way I can match your spl graph as shown is to run the sim and then use the multiple speakers tool to add 1 cab (for a total of 2 cabs). Since you are planning to use a total of 3 cabs it's really weird that you didn't show the results of 1 cab (as most people would) or 3 cabs.

4. One of your dimensions is 104 inches, which is longer than 8 feet. Plywood longer than 8 feet is expensive and sometimes hard to find. 104 inches is only 8 inches longer than 8 feet, so for 8 inches you are buying yourself a potential heap of trouble.

5. Dispersion (directivity) is going to be a mess if your subs are 16+ feet apart.

6. Using the same drivers and same overall cab size (net) it took me about 3 minutes to beat the snot out of your sim. If you get a bigger amp and assuming the drivers can handle the extra power I can beat it by quite a bit.

Graph 1 (line 1) - I redid your sim in 2 pi space and only enough power to hit xmax (1400 watts).
Graph 2 (line 1) - spl results for these inputs, 1 cab vs 3 cabs
Graph 3 (line 2) - my three minute front loaded horn for comparison - it's the same size as your tapped horn but it can take a boatload more power before it hits xmax
Graph 4 (line 2) - spl results for the flh, 1 cab vs 3 cabs
Graph 5 (line 3) - direct comparison of tapped horn vs flh, 3 cabs of each

It would take a bit of work to change the hpy/ex flh into par segments but I didn't want to spend more than 3 minutes on this.
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File Type: png trackzilla.png (188.6 KB, 788 views)

Last edited by just a guy; 29th April 2013 at 04:14 PM.
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