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Old 12th September 2013, 07:08 PM   #111
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Fair enough, ain't like I started by posting my resume...and I'm also unfortunately no stranger to overlooking the obvious while obsessing about some nuance

Last edited by Trackzilla; 12th September 2013 at 07:13 PM.
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Old 13th September 2013, 05:31 AM   #112
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Just curious if you have a picture of the extruded metal you mentioned for your grilles?

I am thinking of making a grille for my subs and wanted to know what others used. My area that would be needed to cover is rather large so I though of going with a thicker material to keep the grille from flapping back and forth. PLUS with the grille area having to be at least 64% or higher flow rate I wondered what you might be using. Just curious.
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Old 13th September 2013, 06:07 AM   #113
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@Just a guy- your name is hilariously ironic as you clearly think quite highly of yourself. For all I know that is well deserved (or not). Please consider this: your consistently antagonistic tone is unnecessary. The data you present is good enough to speak for itself and your subjective opinion of your own opinion just makes you come off like a dick. If I look past that you are actually being nice and quite helpful spending time assisting the OP. I have found that approaching such things in a collaborative manner, instead of oppositional, will result in a much higher rate of acceptance of your ideas and people will think more highly of you. You obviously have experience and knowledge, trust in that to convey the merit of your statements and try not to belittle others who may not be as skilled or don't convey their idea correctly.

@OP IMO- you are focusing too much on sub 30hz. I do not know of any EDM that has much content below 30hz but I can appreciate striving for "flat" to 30hz. I think of 20-29hz as being for theater, but that's just me. I would wager a guess that the ensuing rattles in the building from content below 35 would be louder than the frequencies causing them. My suggestion is make your life easier and shorten the horn length a bit. Also the type of EDM that is typical for the venue is a major consideration. House, techno and trance(I call them "4 on the floor" music") rarely hit below 38 and the "transient" nature of the bass makes them much more sensitive to building rattle, in that it can spoil your sound quality. Bass music (dnb dubstep, glitch, etc.) demands extension to at least 36 and tend to mask most rattles unless they have harmonics well over 1k or are narrow q like undamped hvac. But bass music can expose weaknesses in your amps (and/or power distro) that the watt rating doesn't show. 3+seconds of a 30hz square(ish) wave will choke that qsc and it will lose output quickly as the capacitors drain. Put macrotech or crest on a 30 amp circuit(for the older models 20 can fine for newer ones) with the same track and jaws will drop at the difference.

I was also going to mention the sub placement issue. Given the limitations I would try delaying the center sub about 3ms. Situations like that make me wish I could afford EASE. Regarding imaging, I feel strongly that significant misalignment in the time domain of the tops and subs results in poor imaging so IMO subs do play a role in imaging even if its not a stereo perception. When tuning by ear I try to get the kick to sound like its coming from the space between the tops and the subs. Perhaps we could call that vertical imaging as opposed to stereo imaging. I never thought about it this way before, just conveying my train of thought stemming from the discussion.

Lastly, the venue you describe reminds me of this club DNA lounge here in SF. Best of luck, and if you are on the west coast pm me, I'd love to check it out when you get those cabs in.

-Matt

Last edited by mattlong8; 13th September 2013 at 06:33 AM.
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Old 13th September 2013, 05:14 PM   #114
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Not sure on what music you listen to or use but there is PLENTY of content below 40hz to make the 30hz extension warranted. While some music does not go below 40hz much, most of the newer tracks of today I have ever listen to go down to 30hz frequently. Add in slowed and other types and now 25hz becomes warranted. So getting off the train at 30hz seems like a good idea.

Either way everyone may need a different setup based on their application.
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Old 13th September 2013, 05:36 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattlong8 View Post
@Just a guy- your name is hilariously ironic as you clearly think quite highly of yourself. For all I know that is well deserved (or not). Please consider this: your consistently antagonistic tone is unnecessary. The data you present is good enough to speak for itself and your subjective opinion of your own opinion just makes you come off like a dick. If I look past that you are actually being nice and quite helpful spending time assisting the OP. I have found that approaching such things in a collaborative manner, instead of oppositional, will result in a much higher rate of acceptance of your ideas and people will think more highly of you. You obviously have experience and knowledge, trust in that to convey the merit of your statements and try not to belittle others who may not be as skilled or don't convey their idea correctly.
When I bother to post at all anymore it's very usually in a blunt and factual manner, if you want to characterize that as "consistently antagonistic" that's fine with me. I seriously don't care if you think I'm a dick or how highly anyone thinks of me. This isn't facebook and I'm not asking you or anyone else to "friend" me, this is an educational forum and all that matters is correct information. Feel free to disregard my posts if you don't like me. I don't post much anymore anyway. Usually the people that need the most help are the ones least willing to accept it (not in this conversation but in general) and to be honest, IMO that's their own fault, not mine.

I could say a lot more about this but it doesn't belong here. PM me or start a new thread, that's what you should have done in the first place. I'll address all your concerns honestly, bluntly and factually.
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Old 13th September 2013, 06:50 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattlong8 View Post
@Just a guy- your name is hilariously ironic as you clearly think quite highly of yourself. For all I know that is well deserved (or not). Please consider this: your consistently antagonistic tone is unnecessary. The data you present is good enough to speak for itself and your subjective opinion of your own opinion just makes you come off like a dick. If I look past that you are actually being nice and quite helpful spending time assisting the OP. I have found that approaching such things in a collaborative manner, instead of oppositional, will result in a much higher rate of acceptance of your ideas and people will think more highly of you. You obviously have experience and knowledge, trust in that to convey the merit of your statements and try not to belittle others who may not be as skilled or don't convey their idea correctly.
Matt, I see you've been posting here for about 14 months. Never underestimate whom you are conversing with here, this is not the shallow end of the pool.

This is a technical forum which tends to draw audio pro's..........and audio hobbyists with very strong professional and technical backgrounds in areas outside audio. Along with that comes egos, a certain level of impatience, and a detail oriented nature. I'm actually suprised at how well people get along.

Last edited by turbodawg; 13th September 2013 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 15th September 2013, 08:37 PM   #117
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mattlong8: I feel like Just a Guy & I have cleared our air just fine by ourselves, thanks. I have great respect for his opinions & knowledge, & he had no idea what (if any) knowledge I had at the start. It's interesting in context that you assume that I am not aware of the spectral content of various genre of music when I've already satisfied most here that I have at least some working knowledge of and experience with active bass management...one is distinctly more basic knowledge than the other for an old road dog such as myself.

chrapladm: Attached is a pix of the expanded steel grill I made to replace the missing PV grill for a DJ customer, it is the same stuff I use for most of my projects. A local metal supply shop has it in 4x8 sheets for around $70. I use plastic trim for wallboard to cover the sharp bits & give it a nice clean look with no effort. For some projects I'll also spray the back with R77 & stick acoustic cloth to it before the plastic trim goes on.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg replacement PV grill.jpg (774.6 KB, 192 views)
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:44 AM   #118
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Got them done, installed, and a solid 'rough tweak' on getting them dialed in. Unfortunately, we did not have time to do our traditional outdoor range test before installation. In fact, so far the rig is entirely set-up & aligned with math off of my models & a quick application of ears for polish. I will try to do some advanced tweaking & testing and post some sub-in-room graphs as soon as I get caught up on the other install stuff that has dropped into our lap as festival season dries up.

Nonetheless, in a nutshell these subs are freaking amazing in this space. I have had sooo many people come up to me with glowing comments. Jesse Marko onstage currently, using tables & having no issues with tracking or skipping, but the LF distorts your vision if you're directly in front of the stage, so I'd say I managed a decent degree of onstage cancellation. And throughout the room I can't find a cold spot so far. Tomorrow is the first live band on the new rig and next Thursday Blau is back here again, the drivers will be broken in by then, so we'll see if we're all still as ecstatic at that point as we are now.
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Old 18th October 2013, 12:06 PM   #119
Zwiller is online now Zwiller  United States
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Congrats on the install.

A little late, but I have been meaning to suggest the possibility using MDO instead of MDF for moisture resistance as a cost effective material. (my uncle was involved with the development of a similar process) Just a thought... That said, with paint technology as good as it is, I am sure MDF will hold up just fine with a good paint job.
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Old 18th October 2013, 03:28 PM   #120
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