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Old 17th April 2013, 11:52 PM   #71
Djim is offline Djim  Netherlands
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Hi Bp1Fanatic,

Thanks for your input. Besides the input differences (which causes the difference between your responses) you have clearly a point.

There is now a +6dB difference (see picture below). It now shows a +6dB gain because there is no longer a drop of the roll-off in frequency, meaning, no 'trade' in frequency extension at cost of efficiency. I am not sure but I suppose that is the result of chamber that functions like a transformer between driver and pipe. Probably David can explain better why there is no longer a drop of the roll-off in frequency.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 18th April 2013, 01:20 AM   #72
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I'm going to try this one more time with pictures and then I'm done with this nonsense.

The first two pics (the two in the top row) show Hornresp inputs for a single tapped horn and the power response prediction for those inputs.

The first pic in the second row shows how to use the multiple speakers feature. The second pic in the second row shows the multiple speakers feature sim (bold line) vs the single cab as shown directly above (grey line). Clearly there's 6 db difference between the two on the low end. The response curve shape between the dark line and the grey line is slightly different, because that's what happens when you double the mouth size. If you don't understand why the response curve shape changes when the mouth size changes you don't understand how horns work.

The first pic in the third row shows how to input the changes to double up the cabs without using the multiple speakers feature. Everything with a red circle around it is doubled, everything that is not circled in red is left alone. The second pic in the third row shows the response that this generates. The second pic also shows a comparison between this response and the multiple speakers feature directly above. You can't see the grey line because they overlay perfectly.

So to recap (since I'm not going to explain this again) the multiple speakers feature produces EXACTLY the same result as the regular mode.

Both of these methods for specifying multiple speakers (multiple speakers feature vs multiplying the drivers, chambers and segment csa's) produce 6 db more than a single cab at low frequencies, and less as frequency rises.

There is nothing wrong with Hornresp if you use it properly.
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Old 20th April 2013, 09:31 PM   #73
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Exactly. Your version, the box is twice as wide. My version, the box has twice the depth.
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Old 20th April 2013, 11:26 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP1Fanatic View Post
Exactly. Your version, the box is twice as wide. My version, the box has twice the depth.
I'm not really sure what you mean. There is no width or depth dimension, only cross sectional area and horn flare length.

I didn't know what you were trying to show in your sim so I didn't look at it too closely. You didn't post any details of what was being simulated and there's no need to adjust L12, L23 or L34 so your post didn't make much sense to me.

I didn't address your post specifically since I don't want to continue this discussion any further, but I showed the correct way to do this in my own post.

Last edited by just a guy; 20th April 2013 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 02:21 AM   #75
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Your design, the 2 subs are positioned side by side, landscape, horizontal, or double width. My design, the 2 subs are portrait, vertical, or double depth. Both designs have double the cross sectional area of a single sub.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 05:13 AM   #76
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I'm still not really sure what you are talking about. When you say "the 2 subs" are you talking about the drivers? If so, what you did is not correct.

I still don't know exactly what you were simulating but to cut to the chase I did my own version of your simulation. I assumed your first input screen (the bottom left input screen) was the single cab being simulated. Based on that:

The first pic in the top row is the inputs for a single cab. (Same as your inputs.) The second pic in the top row is the power response of the single cab.

The first pic in the second row shows I used the multiple speakers tool to generate the second pic in the second row; the spl response for two cabs. This second pic also shows a comparison to a single cab - this grey line is the same response as the second pic in the top row.

The first pic in the third row shows the correct way to simulate two cabs without using the multiple speakers tool. The input boxes circled in red are all doubled, all the others are left alone. There is no other correct way to do this. The second pic in this row shows the response that these inputs generate. Also shown is a comparison to the double cab sim done with the multiple speakers tool. You can't see the grey line because the results overlay perfectly.

What I've shown is the only correct way to do this, if the goal is to compare sims of a single cab vs dual cabs done with the multiple speakers feature vs dual cabs done without the multiple speakers tool.

Also notice how I've described each screen that I've shown. You didn't make any notes about any of your screenshots and since you didn't do them correctly it's almost impossible to guess what you were trying to do.
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File Type: png bp.png (279.8 KB, 89 views)

Last edited by just a guy; 22nd April 2013 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 06:01 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just a guy View Post
There is no other correct way to do this.
Hi just a guy,

For your example of two speakers connected in parallel radiating into half space with Rg = 0, you could also just change the single speaker Ang from 2 Pi to 1 Pi :-).

Kind regards,

David
Attached Images
File Type: png bp1.png (48.7 KB, 80 views)
File Type: png bp2.png (60.5 KB, 77 views)
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Old 22nd April 2013, 07:28 AM   #78
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Yes, that will produce exactly the same results and it's a lot faster and easier to do it that way but technically it's not the correct way to do it. And that method won't work for larger stacks of speakers.

At this point there have been so many misconceptions and outright errors presented in this discussion that I think "technically correct" is the best approach to move forward and hopefully bring this topic to a conclusion.

Last edited by just a guy; 22nd April 2013 at 07:31 AM.
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Old 22nd April 2013, 07:43 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just a guy View Post
And that method won't work for larger stacks of speakers.
Hi just a guy,

... or when Rg is not equal to zero.

I think the easiest method is just to use the Multiple Speakers tool :-).

Kind regards,

David
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Old 22nd April 2013, 05:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David McBean View Post

I think the easiest method is just to use the Multiple Speakers tool :-).

Kind regards,

David
Yes, I agree, and that's how I've always done it. But unfortunately this all started because someone has been repeatedly questioning the results of the multiple speakers tool. This was just an excercise to show that it produces EXACTLY the same results as the Hornresp regular mode.
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