Playing hornresp : 22L tapped horns 30-180hz with 10" speaker - diyAudio
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Old 15th February 2013, 01:56 PM   #1
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Default Playing hornresp : 22L tapped horns 30-180hz with 10" speaker

Hi,

I know search for optimal mini sub is well talked on the web. I've read all i can find...But most of time, it is for max spl. I think tapped horn can be also use to get very small cabinet with very flat frequency from 20 to 200hz. It would not be efficient, but it would be to use at low level at home, only for bass playing. I cannot access to picasa to upload images, so i'll have to explain.I can't post now hornresp simulations.

First, i made simulation with all tang band speakers from 2 4" wich was not so bad, to 8"...i tryed with some B&C speaker (10nw64,8nw81,8fg51)...But as i can go 4ohm, it's not so much optimal until i get a 4 ohm speaker, or 2 8 ohm. I've tested with some 18sound, some sica, seas, and some ciare pro, faital. And that here i discover ciare public range speakers... the cw258nd is a 10" 4 ohm speaker with a very low VAS.

In a 5 segment tapped in only 20 liters it reach a near flat response from 30 to 180 hz with a group delay of 20ms @30hz (not so bad) at 92-94 db @1pi space (nead a wall). With 12 watts, it make 100 db. Diaphragm displacement is only 2,5mm...far from the 9 mm xmax. The impulse response is bad, but as it only for sub...i don't know if it really matter.
I choose first this speaker because it the only 10" 4ohm speaker with a VAS near 20 without going for rubber surround.
His xmax limit would be reached at 100w, and it would push 110 db.
After all, if finally it is possible, it should maybe realized in a kind of Bill Fitzmaurice Jack10 like this Another Jack 10 build - Page 2 - finnbass.com ; It is a interesting way to do a cubic tapped horn and seems to work well.

As it's only numbers for me, does 100-110 db in a 1pi space seems you "enough" ?
There would be a active crossover in the 180 range to mix with a guitar cabinet used as "medium-high" speaker. The idea is to have practice bass, and guitar cabinets, in the smallest volume possible keeping good lows. A small tda chip amp would run the low (and maybe after something bigger) and a 1w SE UL ECL82 for the medium/high.

I need your help because it's only simulation. I tryed to do the best i understood from what i've found on the web. But it would be the first time i try tapped horn.

Did i misunderstand something ?
Does it seems you a interesting ?
Any suggestion ?

Just for fun i tryed something else...It seems too that the guitar speaker eminence governor 16 ohm in his 30L closed box should get near the same response in a 15L tapped horn (very hard to make, but seem possible). As it's for guitar, resonnance, and distortion is not so much a problem. It could be great, or bad.... But i'm really not convinced...
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Old 16th February 2013, 07:26 PM   #2
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Click the image to open in full size.
I've lost my optimised test, but it was not so far from somthing like this...
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Old 16th February 2013, 08:39 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papasteack View Post
As it's only numbers for me, does 100-110 db in a 1pi space seems you "enough" ?
There would be a active crossover in the 180 range to mix with a guitar cabinet used as "medium-high" speaker. The idea is to have practice bass, and guitar cabinets, in the smallest volume possible keeping good lows. A small tda chip amp would run the low (and maybe after something bigger) and a 1w SE UL ECL82 for the medium/high.

Did i misunderstand something ?
Does it seems you a interesting ?
Any suggestion ?
Is 110 dB in 1pi enough? Not for most bass players used to playing with drummers- a hard hit on a snare drum can do around 125 dB at one meter. A 10 dB change in level at 1000 Hz sounds twice (or half) as loud.

It would be enough for practice volume for me, but I don't like loud volume. I have my 5 watt Epiphone Valve Jr. practice amp attenuated about 10 dB (equivalent to 1/2 watt output) it will only do 100 dB flat out at one meter measured on the floor.

Counting on boundary loading is generally not a good idea, better to use half space in your figures.

You will want to delay the top cabinet by approximately the path length of the TH for proper integration, otherwise the low bass will seem "slow".

Hornresp generally exaggerates peaks and dips, the little 35 Hz bump may not happen at all, at any rate your small room response will look nothing like the chart anyway.

Last edited by weltersys; 16th February 2013 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:08 PM   #4
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papasteack View Post
As it's for guitar, resonnance, and distortion is not so much a problem.
oh, I find it quite the opposite...makes a whole lot of difference

for guitar ? you mean bass guitar ? why do you need 20hz ?

but you dont need a sub at all
think 2-channel amp instead
you can use any PA power amp
and a 2 channel preamp output splitter from preamp

a big PA woofer that goes low in one channel, and playing 'fullrange', and no other driver in that channel
and in the other channel, a 2way stage floor monitor with less low end extention

and you can create a very nice sound by mixing the two channels, turning them up or down

if its not loud enough...just double up
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Old 16th February 2013, 09:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
for guitar ? you mean bass guitar ? why do you need 20hz ?
The low B on a five string bass is 30.86 Hz, only 1/3 octave above where papasteack's simulation drops off.

Slapped bass strings have output down to a few Hz, can make a 26" kick drum seem anemic by comparison when reproduced well.
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Old 16th February 2013, 10:13 PM   #6
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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ah, ok, I understand
very low bass 5 string sounds like very good for big places
well, Im more to the smaller stuff
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Old 16th February 2013, 10:43 PM   #7
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Ok...First, it seems to confirm 100db is what i want. I've played with a lm386 with the eminence governor in a closed box and at around half volume it was what i'm looking for.
In a 2pi space, "lows" would be at 95db ...but does it make a huge difference @30-180 hz ? would 95db be enough at bedroom level ? with loudness effect, it seems complex to me. With 100w, the tapped horn simulation in a 2 pi space give me 103 db...So, the project seems realist, it's a very good news !


I don't need 20hz...and I don't need so much 30hz neither, but i want it as it seems possible, at least to get the small fondamental of a low B when playing bass if i achieve this project a day...

From what i read, a bass sound is essentially harmonics...it's psychoacoustic.

Thanks for the comments. I thought about the problem of phase. As i have to do an active crossover, maybe i can do a phase control. But it's seems very complex thing. It seems to be the biggest problem with this bi-amping. I think simulating on left/right computer audio chanel the crossover should help.

It would only be bi-amped for bass. For guitar, a switch puts off the low amp and the crossover. It's a full system project with all integrated in the smallest enclosure possible...
In the market, "bedroom amp" just never go such low...or become really bigs. And we need a amp for guitar, another for bass... That's why i want to try to use the guitar speaker as mid-high speaker when playing bass. And the idea of tube for high, class D for lows make it more exciting.

Does the idea of putting a guitar speaker in a tapped horn is a bad idea? the simulation looks like the one in a closed box but in a really smaller box...
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Old 16th February 2013, 11:04 PM   #8
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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forget all about crossovers...and 'audio' theories
crossovers really turns instrument speakers into a complete mess
it can really screw up your tuning and pitch

sounds like you want your setup to do both bass and guitar
well, its easy
like I suggested

use 2-channel/stereo setup
a hefty woofer in one channel, running fullrange
and your favourite guitar speaker in the other channel

many 2-channel PA power amp have seperate mono volume pots
so it will be easy to mix the channels as you please

all the other stuff, forget it
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Old 17th February 2013, 12:44 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papasteack View Post
In a 2pi space, "lows" would be at 95db ...but does it make a huge difference @30-180 hz ? would 95db be enough at bedroom level ? with loudness effect, it seems complex to me. With 100w, the tapped horn simulation in a 2 pi space give me 103 db...So, the project seems realist, it's a very good news !

From what i read, a bass sound is essentially harmonics...it's psychoacoustic.

Thanks for the comments. I thought about the problem of phase. As i have to do an active crossover, maybe i can do a phase control.

Does the idea of putting a guitar speaker in a tapped horn is a bad idea? the simulation looks like the one in a closed box but in a really smaller box...
Most "guitar speakers" wont have the right parameters for a TH.

From an equal loudness contour standpoint it takes about 119 dB for 30 Hz to sound as loud as 100 dB does at 1000 Hz.

As far as response, a rolled off bottom is OK for bass guitar, but getting the low B to sound full and not make the speaker flap is enjoyable.
Most electric basses the harmonics are already much higher than the fundamental.

What works really depends on style, a system for reggae would need more bottom than for jazz.

Getting phase to match at the crossover point is very important to get "punch" and definition. It often takes using different filter types, and different crossover frequencies between low and high, as well as delay to get it just right.

Done right, a crossover is undetectable, poorly implemented, they can be a mess.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:25 AM   #10
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Thanks weltersys. So i'll keep the guitar speaker in his "big" 30L closed cab.

Tinitus, i have already done 300w bi amplified with a 18" bass speaker and a 12" in nearly 100/300 L bass reflex with a old crate bass thunder wich intergrate crossover and a PA amp. It worked REALLY great. At the modest studio, everybody was impressed by big lows. So i don't worry.
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