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Old 9th February 2013, 05:29 PM   #1
kctess5 is offline kctess5  United States
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Default Corner horn subwoofer

Hey guys,

Does anyone know how to model a corner horn in Hornresp? It is so deeply reliant on room modes and geometry that it seems like there must be some trick to it. I wan't to get at LEAST 20Hz extension, depth extension is valued far above max SPL because I would rather hear very low notes than annoy the neighbors at 2:30 in the morning

I am designing my college system, I was going to make 2 16Hz tapped horns for the corners but I figure those would be too hard to store in the summers, so I want to make something smaller and I thought 2 corner horns would fit the bill. Btw I won't have a room mate hence the awesome sound system

Luckily the dorm I will be in will most likely be just a standard dorm sized rectangle roughly 10'x15' (or thereabouts) so there won't be any funky room geometry things going on. The walls (I think) are concrete or brick or something like that.

Budget wise I would prefer to stay under $100 per woofer, so that after finishing and everything the cost for the two of them is around $300.
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Old 9th February 2013, 05:54 PM   #2
Xoc1 is offline Xoc1  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kctess5 View Post
Hey guys,

Does anyone know how to model a corner horn in Hornresp? It is so deeply reliant on room modes and geometry that it seems like there must be some trick to it.
Just set the Ang setting to 0.5 X Pi
Free Space 4 x Pi is speaker in the air.
Half space 2 x Pi is speaker on the floor My favourite setting for a PA sub.
Quarter space 1 x Pi is speaker on the floor and against the back wall.
Eighth space 0.5 x Pi is speaker in the corner.
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Old 9th February 2013, 07:23 PM   #3
kctess5 is offline kctess5  United States
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Hmmm I've used that before and I thought it pretty much just increases output over the whole range not use the wall as a part of the actually horn expansion. Aka if I just simulate the throat part of the horn it doesn't take into account that the mouth of the horn actually is the room if that makes sense.
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Old 9th February 2013, 08:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by kctess5 View Post
Hmmm I've used that before and I thought it pretty much just increases output over the whole range not use the wall as a part of the actually horn expansion. Aka if I just simulate the throat part of the horn it doesn't take into account that the mouth of the horn actually is the room if that makes sense.
You are correct, better to use the room wall corner expansion as the final horn segment.
A room corner is a tetrahedron,(not a pyramid) you will need to do a little math to figure the expansion area and which expansion type (probably Par) fits best.
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Old 9th February 2013, 08:14 PM   #5
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A low-freq horn is an exceedingly complex bit of woodworking and big as a refrigerator, even down to "just" 35 Hz (where the justifiably famous Klipschorn disappears).

Down to where it disappears, nothing fills a room with woofing like a horn. But I'd have trouble figuring out any other advantages exception that you get training in woodworking.

Ben
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Old 9th February 2013, 08:25 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
A low-freq horn is an exceedingly complex bit of woodworking and big as a refrigerator, even down to "just" 35 Hz (where the justifiably famous Klipschorn disappears).

Down to where it disappears, nothing fills a room with woofing like a horn. But I'd have trouble figuring out any other advantages exception that you get training in woodworking.

Ben
Ben,

Low frequency horns for use as subwoofers don't need to be near as complicated to build as the Klipshorn, which was designed to sound good up in the vocal midrange.

That said, the Klipshorn would be a good plan to use as a model, but scaling up the size for 20 Hz response will use a lot of plywood.

And more than enough SPL to get kctess5 kicked out of the dorm room quite quickly even using a 10 watt amp.
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Old 9th February 2013, 10:15 PM   #7
kctess5 is offline kctess5  United States
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I don't think it needs to be all that complex, considering that I basically just have to build the rear chamber and the throat. I am thinking of using a pretty high compression ratio. I don't even think it will have to be that large considering that the room IS the horn, which will be the majority of the size of it, it just has to be the rear chamber and a bit more.

Basically it will just be a sealed, corner loaded box, with a bit extra in front of the woofer to provide a higher compression ratio than normal.

And size wise the tapped horns I was planning were something like 10 cubic ft each so it can be pretty large and still be RELATIVELY small.

I was thinking something like this:
Click the image to open in full size.

I need it to go from about 60Hz down, preferably with output at 15Hz. I want to use either two 25w plate amps or two 50w plate amps, even if it could handle a lot more than that just to prevent excessive SPL levels.

What should the final segment length be? The distance from the corner to the listener?

And then should the size of the mouth be the cross sectional area normal to the corner from the listening position? I would guess that it won't matter too much what it specifically is as long as it is in the ballpark because the mouth will be so large.

I will probably make them look like little tables and put a couple of lamps on top of them or something to make them "disappear"
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:14 AM   #8
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kctess5 - easy to make a box that kind of looks like a horn. But even the Klipschorn (35 - 400 Hz) is at the very limits of "cutting [theoretical] corners" and even cutting those corners leave a lot to be desired in performance. And this big box goes NOWHERE anything under 35 Hz.

Just forget this idea of a horn concept. Inconceivably unfeasible in light of everything you've said that matters to you.... unless for no good reason what so ever you think a "tapped horn" is a some kind of horn?

BTW, there are people on this forum who pop up just to argue just because.... I don't know why... maybe they couldn't get into Mensa.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 10th February 2013 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 10th February 2013, 05:27 AM   #9
zobsky is offline zobsky  India
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kctess5 View Post
Hey guys,

Does anyone know how to model a corner horn in Hornresp? It is so deeply reliant on room modes and geometry that it seems like there must be some trick to it. I wan't to get at LEAST 20Hz extension, depth extension is valued far above max SPL because I would rather hear very low notes than annoy the neighbors at 2:30 in the morning

I am designing my college system, I was going to make 2 16Hz tapped horns for the corners but I figure those would be too hard to store in the summers, so I want to make something smaller and I thought 2 corner horns would fit the bill. Btw I won't have a room mate hence the awesome sound system

Luckily the dorm I will be in will most likely be just a standard dorm sized rectangle roughly 10'x15' (or thereabouts) so there won't be any funky room geometry things going on. The walls (I think) are concrete or brick or something like that.

Budget wise I would prefer to stay under $100 per woofer, so that after finishing and everything the cost for the two of them is around $300.
Forget fully horn loaded 20 hz in a dorm sized room. The room will most likely be smaller than a real horn
Either
1. Plan for a 20 hz vertical tapped horn ( several plans on this forum) and plan on crossing fairly early - say 60hz or so
2. Aim for a 30 hz horn loaded design such as the table tuba or other designs (tapped or otherwise ) and plan on crossing 80-100hz
3. Design a 20hz t-twqt. These tend to have less dynamics than a horn but can sound better than the usual reflex sub- and are the smallest of all the 3 options

I'm speaking from personal experience with options 2 and 3
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Old 10th February 2013, 05:31 AM   #10
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Hi kctess5,

Quote:
Does anyone know how to model a corner horn in Hornresp?
Simply set Ang = 0.5 x Pi.

It is not necessary to include the corner walls as part of the horn design.

Quote:
I wan't to get at LEAST 20Hz extension, depth extension is valued far above max SPL
A conventional corner horn capable of working down to 20 hertz (a wavelength of 17.2 metres) would need to be significantly larger than a Klipschorn bass horn.

Quote:
Luckily the dorm I will be in will most likely be just a standard dorm sized rectangle roughly 10'x15' (or thereabouts)
A 20Hz bass horn is unlikely to perform particularly well in such a relatively small room.

Kind regards,

David
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