I know its overkill, but the sims was very good, well until i found out that the specs in winisd was either from an old model or just faulty. the sim of the current/right specd 15xb wasnt very good in an enclosure that size.
i did sim the fane 400lf and the fane pro 15-500, both need larger enclosure.
sim of the new fane 15xb is no better im afraid. none of them will give me the extension i want in an enclosure that size.
I cant do a cab any larger than 90L when driver/bracing and ports volume is deducted.
im not really worried about power handling as i only need about 100db/1m output from it with a 15watt amplifier...
with only 15W input power its not necessary to make the diameter very large and there not very long either.
any good ideers?
i did sim the fane 400lf and the fane pro 15-500, both need larger enclosure.
sim of the new fane 15xb is no better im afraid. none of them will give me the extension i want in an enclosure that size.
I cant do a cab any larger than 90L when driver/bracing and ports volume is deducted.
im not really worried about power handling as i only need about 100db/1m output from it with a 15watt amplifier...
with only 15W input power its not necessary to make the diameter very large and there not very long either.
any good ideers?
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BEFORE GOING TO THE 15" DRIVERS.
panduro, did you find anything yet?
If you would like the use of a 15", for looks, disregarding it's performance, then express that.
For a 10" driver (I don't know if you find it yourself, mail, price, likes, other) look at the Eminence LEGEND BP102. It's for a 90 liter box, real 92dB, F3~36Hz.
lean-business.co.uk
The 8" BEYMA 8WOOFER/P-V2 is also for a 90L box and gives 84.9 dB/2.83V/m F3=33Hz when tunned to 22Hz.
The 10" Beyma 10BR60V2 likes a big box (138L) but tunned to 25Hz in a 90L box gives 33/26/18 (F3/F6/F12) with 86 dB/2.83V/m.
I didn't check the 15W power drive for the 100dB SPL, that's your mission and report back.
panduro, did you find anything yet?
If you would like the use of a 15", for looks, disregarding it's performance, then express that.
For a 10" driver (I don't know if you find it yourself, mail, price, likes, other) look at the Eminence LEGEND BP102. It's for a 90 liter box, real 92dB, F3~36Hz.
lean-business.co.uk
The 8" BEYMA 8WOOFER/P-V2 is also for a 90L box and gives 84.9 dB/2.83V/m F3=33Hz when tunned to 22Hz.
The 10" Beyma 10BR60V2 likes a big box (138L) but tunned to 25Hz in a 90L box gives 33/26/18 (F3/F6/F12) with 86 dB/2.83V/m.
I didn't check the 15W power drive for the 100dB SPL, that's your mission and report back.
thank you for all your answers, its much appriciated
Beyma power 12 freq looks very good. 102db 25W/4ohm f3 27hz with a very nice curve. But must admit that i have never heard a nice sounding heavy coned car driver that sounded very good without a **** load of power stuffed up its erhhhmm terminals
.
eminence models pretty well in a 90L cab, and does 103 db with 20w/6ohm, f3 31hz with a pretty good curve.
yes i like the look of a big woofer, the bigger the better. but not enoughf that im willing to sacrifice sq.
I just like the sound and sensitivity of the lighter cones.
reason for 15 insted of 12 was sensitivity only, hoped i could find 3 or 4 db extra compared to a 12inch with the same wattage.
But if im going to 12" anyways, maybe i should steal one of the jbl 120h1 i got im my ht currently.(can substitute that with a 15 or 18, ohh **** ill never stop
)
that would give me 103,5db LOL 20W/6ohm f3 32hz with a curve a bit better than the eminence but not as good as the beyma power 12.
best regards
panduro
Beyma power 12 freq looks very good. 102db 25W/4ohm f3 27hz with a very nice curve. But must admit that i have never heard a nice sounding heavy coned car driver that sounded very good without a **** load of power stuffed up its erhhhmm terminals
.eminence models pretty well in a 90L cab, and does 103 db with 20w/6ohm, f3 31hz with a pretty good curve.
yes i like the look of a big woofer, the bigger the better. but not enoughf that im willing to sacrifice sq.
I just like the sound and sensitivity of the lighter cones.
reason for 15 insted of 12 was sensitivity only, hoped i could find 3 or 4 db extra compared to a 12inch with the same wattage.
But if im going to 12" anyways, maybe i should steal one of the jbl 120h1 i got im my ht currently.(can substitute that with a 15 or 18, ohh **** ill never stop
)that would give me 103,5db LOL 20W/6ohm f3 32hz with a curve a bit better than the eminence but not as good as the beyma power 12.
best regards
panduro
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Panduro you have to remember that sensitivity is a double edged sword----to fully utilize the sensitivity of a given driver, you have to build an appropriately sized enclosure.
Sensitivity is not some Godly gift that a speaker has no matter what. You can severely cripple that advantage by stuffing a speaker in a smaller-than-optimum enclosure and/or too low of a tuning. In this case you're trying to do both with 90L AND 27 Hz tuning. If you haven't modeled the 15xb in such an enclosure, I highly suggest you do---because you can't escape Hoffman's iron law; want small and low, then sensitivity HAS to suffer. At those low frequencies our hearing is so insensitive, you need all the sensitivity you can get to keep up with the high stuff.
Sensitivity is not some Godly gift that a speaker has no matter what. You can severely cripple that advantage by stuffing a speaker in a smaller-than-optimum enclosure and/or too low of a tuning. In this case you're trying to do both with 90L AND 27 Hz tuning. If you haven't modeled the 15xb in such an enclosure, I highly suggest you do---because you can't escape Hoffman's iron law; want small and low, then sensitivity HAS to suffer. At those low frequencies our hearing is so insensitive, you need all the sensitivity you can get to keep up with the high stuff.
Hi oscar,
Yes i did sim the 15xb. well 2 different 15xb's actually.
Yes i know you can never get the full sensitivity in a smaller than optimal enclosure, but i expected i could get a bit of it with only a small penalty ...
first i used the pre-entered data in winisd, that was a very good response curve, the reason for the 27hz tuning wasnt to be able to play that low, but to shape the response curve to what i thought was almost perfect for my room.
then i re-enterede the data on the 15xb from the fane website into winisd. that gave me a COMPLETELY different result, much worse... and not usable for my project...
I know, will have to stick with the 12 then
best regards
panduro
Yes i did sim the 15xb. well 2 different 15xb's actually.
Yes i know you can never get the full sensitivity in a smaller than optimal enclosure, but i expected i could get a bit of it with only a small penalty ...
first i used the pre-entered data in winisd, that was a very good response curve, the reason for the 27hz tuning wasnt to be able to play that low, but to shape the response curve to what i thought was almost perfect for my room.
then i re-enterede the data on the 15xb from the fane website into winisd. that gave me a COMPLETELY different result, much worse... and not usable for my project...
I know, will have to stick with the 12 then
best regards
panduro
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Beyma power 12 freq looks very good. 102db 25W/4ohm f3 27hz with a very nice curve. But must admit that i have never heard a nice sounding heavy coned car driver that sounded very good without a **** load of power stuffed up its erhhhmm terminals
It's a vicious circle that is a direct result of Hoffman's Iron Law. This is where a fundamental understanding of inter-related T/S parameters truly does help.
many heavy coned car driver's have a very stiff suspension. This directly affects the required (small) enclosure size to attain an achieveable frequency response curve. But too stiff and the free air resonance goes too high (Fs). The only way to bring it back down is with: mass.
...and then the low Vas (due to the low compliance (stiff suspension) due to the small-box requirements of most car drivers) directly affects efficiency, and thus power sensitivity. All other things equal, the less compliant a speaker is, the lower the efficiency---so then what counteracts low efficiency: a lot of (cheap) power stuffed up it's terminals. No way around Hoffman's iron law.Since you don't have a lot of power (15W), and you want it to play decently low, you absolutely must give up the idea of a (relatively) small enclosure for a particular driver IF you want to exploit it's "reference" sensitivity. Starting out with lots of cone surface area will only benefit you if you build the enclosure to suit. Otherwise you may as well start out with less surface area in order to exploit the sensitivity of a smaller diameter driver.
Stuffing two (large) driver's in your required dimensions will not do anything for sensitivity because you will likely be crippling each one due to the lack of enclosure volume airspace. Obviously if they are a smaller pair of drivers that can use your given airspace, you can exploit their sensitivity, but albeit at a lower starting point. In the end you end up with the same darn thing. It's mother nature's way of telling you "there is no free lunch".
Just another two cents...
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I you meant what I am using the driver for... I'm using them for multiple things.
Experimenting with OB and in the summer i'm using them in backloaded horns for my outdoor/festival speaker system
thanks for all the answers,
keep the 2 cents advice coming as im saving for a full dollar
that was a good explanation, even i got that
hmm think im make the sub with a jbl le120h1 from my ht. figured out that i can do a 120L enclosure, which means i can get it flat to just below 30 with god sensitivity.
wheather or not i go with the 15w or decide to go with a bit more still remain to be seen.
Hi CCU, thanks for the generous offer, but it seems that it needs a very large enclosure to get the desired curve.
but itd love to come by to check out your system- ill bring the beer
best regards
panduro
keep the 2 cents advice coming as im saving for a full dollar
that was a good explanation, even i got that
hmm think im make the sub with a jbl le120h1 from my ht. figured out that i can do a 120L enclosure, which means i can get it flat to just below 30 with god sensitivity.
wheather or not i go with the 15w or decide to go with a bit more still remain to be seen.
Hi CCU, thanks for the generous offer, but it seems that it needs a very large enclosure to get the desired curve.
but itd love to come by to check out your system- ill bring the beer
best regards
panduro
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/CW258ND.PDF has a 21L vas...try simulations...Or a http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/PW258ND.PDF if you prefer 8ohm...?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
26 liters tapped horn...1x10". 30-180hz @ 100db back to a wall @12w 4ohm...Need a high pass @ 35 hz. So no prob with the 30hz spike...can/need to be adjusted more fine. It's just to show. 19 ms group delay @ 30hz... 3mm cone displacement...far from the 9mm xmax... it go to 180 hz so it can be well crossed...the speaker curves seems good. Seems interesting ??
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