Hi Tordenguden,
Only looking for a place to land these suggestions:
b
PS: They too would add an 'image', like subs that don't exist - like they should.
Not sure I understand your question.
I only have simple measurement of my own XXLS subs. The SB subs, I have only briefly heard at a friend. But I have alot of experience listening to very different speakersystems - both cheap and very expensive, and found the SB brand as great quality in both build and sound. But remember, this is my personal view
Bass is like up, no natural higher limit, only those you decide on. Bass is also fun, why put a limit on how much you can have? Thats what spouses and neighbors are for.
Systems with substantial output between 15 and 30hz usually have a visceral sense of space and three dimensionality missing in systems without much output in that range.
All of the full range speakers I've played with sound better high passed, removing the last octave or so that the speaker has to work hard to output. For the high pass to work the subwoofer needs to match the character of the mains, and do a better job of recreating the frequency range.
Its very very easy to turn down a big sub slightly if the level is too high, and impossible to get more out of a sub if its too small.
Systems with substantial output between 15 and 30hz usually have a visceral sense of space and three dimensionality missing in systems without much output in that range.
All of the full range speakers I've played with sound better high passed, removing the last octave or so that the speaker has to work hard to output. For the high pass to work the subwoofer needs to match the character of the mains, and do a better job of recreating the frequency range.
Its very very easy to turn down a big sub slightly if the level is too high, and impossible to get more out of a sub if its too small.
I've got a 15" ported down throwing subwoofer back at home in the shed on a cement slab and I need to move my lounge chair farther away than 2 metres inorder to hear 20Hz, at a shorter distance from the subwoofer I cannot hear it and all I hear is 50Hz and above.
I can feel 50Hz and below though at any distance, it makes the drywall flex by 2 mm at any distance from the sub.
The distance from the subwoofer at least in my case plays a large part in wether or not I can hear below 50Hz, maybe your ears are better than mine.
To me too low of a frequency is when I start to feel it, I don't like feeling my bass I want to hear it, it causes too much pain in my ear canal and head when I can feel it.
If I want to feel sub frequencies all I gotta do is get up and move around, the local highway and the trucks going along it at 20km/h above the speed limit is enough to make everything shake, constantly.
That and all of the idiot drivers with illegal exhaust systems on their cars.
So I guess I'm a bit weird in that I don't design my subs to shake the floor, I design them to move air, my choice of music probably plays a big part in this aswell. Industrial.
Another reason why I got rid of my 22" customs, bass gives me a headache now if I can feel it.
Another reason yet again is that if you can feel it then so can your neighbours, if you go and stand outside you will be able to hear 20Hz and below for quite some distance, these days instead of arguing with pissed off neighbours I just put a steep curve at 30Hz and drop everything below that frequency.
Maybe I'm just getting old.
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I'd suspect the room is at play here: if, at close proximity, low frequencies were cut off, headphones wouldn't produce the low end they can.
If you put your head next to the sub and play 20Hz, can you hear it?
Chris
Chances are that boundary gain is boosting low frequencies when your further from the sub and closer to boundaries, but thats a guess. The subs tune point will also be a factor. The idea low frequencies cant be heard at certain distances or in rooms that are too small is a misconception often spoken of. Try a decent pair of headphones and a 20hz sine wave, if its loud enough it will become quite audible, and thats at a listening distance of only a few centimetres.
I always strive for 10hz performance from sealed systems. Sealed systems dont over bloat these low frequencies, and flat extension to 10hz will give a more balanced sound. Sealed systems also integrate into a system better, but they wont match a ported system for efficiency and outright output without adding more drivers and power at considerable expense.
How big is your box that you can get sealed down to 10hz? are you EQing? I don't do the HT thing and don't listen to much organ music, but I like a strong signal down to 30hz as it gives the low and mid bass better presences.
Eq is a given if you want a flat response to a target frequency. Its actually not that hard to go deep, the hard bit is doing it cleanly at good output levels. My minimum has been a pair of 15's in about 100 litres each, upto a pair of 18's using 250 litres each. Getting good quality mid bass presence is a matter of properly designing your sub to deliver the detail and punch you want in that system. This is also something that is more easily controlled in a sealed system.
I used to know guys that built system around the EV30, and with a freezer sized sealed box it wasn't flat to 20 hz, but sure kicked at 30 to 60hz.
What people need to keep in mind with boost is that if you need 8 db of boost to be flat at 15 hz, at best you have 8 db less overall max level flat if you don't run into excursion limits even sooner.
What people need to keep in mind with boost is that if you need 8 db of boost to be flat at 15 hz, at best you have 8 db less overall max level flat if you don't run into excursion limits even sooner.
What I am getting at is the point of extension to 20hz, or 15hz or 10hz isn't that you can make it flat at some silly low level, its how loud it will play that low, how much effect can it make?
What your house can take structurally isn't a small concern with a subwoofer either, or just below 30 hz.
What your house can take structurally isn't a small concern with a subwoofer either, or just below 30 hz.
I use to own a pair of MINT 1962 EV Patrician 700s with the EV30 in them. What wonderful and beautiful speakers they were. I had to sell them to pay for getting rot fixed on my sailboat, but the rot was more expensive than we first though to I ended up selling the boat for a total fire sale price.....so then I had no boat and no speakers. Sheesh!
Whats odd to me is that its like my brain was shut off, I didn't have the space for them, so I never really considered the speakers they were making, and they did even have the EV30 in a roughly Khorn sized "home" speaker. No money may have played some part in it as well. Such are the choices of youth, brand new Pantera, super home stereo, and I bought recording gear for a home studio. Hard to say what advice I would offer myself knowing what I do now, but pretty sure it would be one of the OTHER two options.
Remember though that optimising a cabinet is key to getting a sound you want, and what optimum for a ported design is pretty much never optimum for a sealed design. If your cabinet is designed to be ported, chances are that when you seal it up its probably going to be a little underwhelming.
I think there is some quality in a deep but sealed subwoofer.
Eventhough the signal will be lower in level, at least it is there, like a slow rolling thunder in the distance (definitely under 30hz).
But getting sealed and low require big drivers and big boxes for tolerable subwoofer sealed F3 (30hz).
But, You can run a pair of epic 12's sealed in 3ft3 total for a sealed F3 of 45hz (perfect for a car). Then add about 12db of boost @ 25hz (making -3db @ 25hz without room gain). But 6ft3 ported and have F3 at tuning frequency of 25hz in a 6ft3 box. And I bet the tuned will be more much cleaner due to the lack of excursion around 25hz, but good luck with getting large enough ports so it doesn't chuff. Those are 22mm xmax subwoofers.
Or the much larger boxed dual 15" dayton Hf, 11ft3 sealed (qtc .707) for 2 drivers, F3=31hz.
These 3 options are on my radar.
30hz Tapped horns are just too big for my apartment.
Stuffing the port of an Rb-75 klipsch (8" 2-way) and adding 6db to 9db of boost from 120hz down has reaquainted me with low volume but deep sealed bass. It's been a while.
I'm hesitant for a sub because even at low level, it goes right through the walls, and people who sleep in silence seem to get annoyed, even when I think the volume level is pretty low.
Norman
Eventhough the signal will be lower in level, at least it is there, like a slow rolling thunder in the distance (definitely under 30hz).
But getting sealed and low require big drivers and big boxes for tolerable subwoofer sealed F3 (30hz).
But, You can run a pair of epic 12's sealed in 3ft3 total for a sealed F3 of 45hz (perfect for a car). Then add about 12db of boost @ 25hz (making -3db @ 25hz without room gain). But 6ft3 ported and have F3 at tuning frequency of 25hz in a 6ft3 box. And I bet the tuned will be more much cleaner due to the lack of excursion around 25hz, but good luck with getting large enough ports so it doesn't chuff. Those are 22mm xmax subwoofers.
Or the much larger boxed dual 15" dayton Hf, 11ft3 sealed (qtc .707) for 2 drivers, F3=31hz.
These 3 options are on my radar.
30hz Tapped horns are just too big for my apartment.
Stuffing the port of an Rb-75 klipsch (8" 2-way) and adding 6db to 9db of boost from 120hz down has reaquainted me with low volume but deep sealed bass. It's been a while.
I'm hesitant for a sub because even at low level, it goes right through the walls, and people who sleep in silence seem to get annoyed, even when I think the volume level is pretty low.
Norman
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Most cars have a rising response below about 60hz of 6d/oct, apples and oranges to home use.
Lots of boost on a small driver must be adding lots of distortion to the rest of its range. Not a place I would choose to go.
You don't need low bass to have big issues with it going through walls, 60 to 100 hz does fine in annoying people, lower frequencies need higher levels before being noticed.
Lots of boost on a small driver must be adding lots of distortion to the rest of its range. Not a place I would choose to go.
You don't need low bass to have big issues with it going through walls, 60 to 100 hz does fine in annoying people, lower frequencies need higher levels before being noticed.
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