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Old 30th November 2012, 12:42 PM   #1
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Default Idea: Integrated Sub + Hi-Perf Speaker Design

Has anybody designed/built a Hi-Perf. speaker, with an Integrated Subwoofer?

Most Subwoofers are divorced from the main speakers. Why? Price?

Does anybody have an idea why the Big Speaker, integrated Subwoofer idea (other than price), won't work?

MLStrand56
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Old 30th November 2012, 06:29 PM   #2
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There are many "Big Speakers" using "Integrated Subwoofers" available, though they are generally not called that in a multi-way single cabinet.
They work OK, but have lousy "WAF" (Wife Appeal Factor).

Having subwoofers separate from the mains allows them to be hidden, and the main speakers to be quite small.
Since bass below 100 Hz is fairly omnidirectional and harder to locate, a single sub may be sufficient.
If multiple subs are chosen, they can be put in the optimal room location, and the mains in optimal room locations for sound.
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Old 30th November 2012, 06:33 PM   #3
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default Do a search for "FAST" loudspeakers.

Hi,
Our very own planet10 has developed the FAST systems. Check in the fullrange forum.
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Old 16th December 2012, 04:15 PM   #4
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Default Re: Lousy Wife Appeal Factor

Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
There are many "Big Speakers" using "Integrated Subwoofers" available, though they are generally not called that in a multi-way single cabinet. They work OK, but have lousy "WAF" (Wife Appeal Factor).

Having subwoofers separate from the mains allows them to be hidden, and the main speakers to be quite small.

Since bass below 100 Hz is fairly omnidirectional and harder to locate, If multiple subs are chosen, they can be put in the optimal room location, and the mains in optimal room locations for sound.
If my wife doesn't like my B&W 801's or my AR-9's, she can stay out of my Music Room.

Re: Hidden Subwoofer. The whole idea of a subwoofer being omni-directional, just doesn't work. Every place in my audio room that I put a subwoofer, I could Always localize where it was coming from. All conventional subwoofer information says otherwise.

What is the correct "classification" of a Multi-way speaker, that incorporates a TRUE subwoofer?

"Wife Appeal" be Damed!!!!!

MLStrand56
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Old 16th December 2012, 06:11 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLStrand56 View Post
If my wife doesn't like my B&W 801's or my AR-9's, she can stay out of my Music Room.

Re: Hidden Subwoofer. The whole idea of a subwoofer being omni-directional, just doesn't work. Every place in my audio room that I put a subwoofer, I could Always localize where it was coming from. All conventional subwoofer information says otherwise.

What is the correct "classification" of a Multi-way speaker, that incorporates a TRUE subwoofer?

"Wife Appeal" be Damed!!!!!

MLStrand56
If you could easily localize your subwoofer crossed below 100 Hz at 24 dB per octave acoustically, perhaps it has enough distortion to give away it's location. That said, if using a single sub, I far prefer it centered, rather than off set to one side or the other.

The "classification" of a "TRUE subwoofer" is just a semantic discussion.
The requirements for a subwoofer for mains that only make it down to 250 Hz will be different than a sub used only up to 80-100 Hz.

I find LF extension flat to 20 Hz works for my needs, whether the extension comes from a driver in the same cabinet as the upper frequencies, or a separate cabinet makes no difference to me, other than separate subs can be put in their optimal room location, and the mains in their optimal room locations.

Art
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Old 16th December 2012, 06:42 PM   #6
sreten is offline sreten  United Kingdom
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Hi,

There are designs out there with active bass, effectively an integrated
subwoofer, but they work better with higher x/o points than AV subs.

rgds, sreten.
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Old 17th December 2012, 12:30 AM   #7
Nanook is offline Nanook  Canada
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Default jut some comments regarding last 3 posts.

sreten: As always a good point. But what I consider to be "good" subs often include a switchable "music" or "movie" setting which often increases the output of the sub, or the frequency of the crossover(s) or both.

MLStrand56: I too can easily localize subwoofers. Stereo subwoofers are better than a single. As you point out correctly, current "fashion" suggests that a single subwoofer is suitable. I'll concede the point that in HT applications where (if you have a reasonable quality HT electronics group and speakers) the primary sense is visual then aural, perhaps a single sub is convenient and easy to package. I have quite a good KEF subwoofer tucked away in my living room, but haven't had it plugged in for some time (no electricity, no signal). Currently it is a plant stand. One thing that I should say is that subs may not sound their best when mounted close to the primary speakers they are "helping out". But in my experience a pair of subs mounted close to the primary speakers seem to allow easy and good integration and the room effects seem to be minimized.

Please, I am not looking for a discussion or argument about optimal placement of subs in a room, nor am I intending to hijack this thread. There is enough information to suggest that the placement of multiple subwoofers in a room is in and of itself another topic completely.

One caveat or exception that I have experienced though: If using loudspeakers that have absolutely no bass or even an impression of it, I have used a single subwoofer to help out. I place the sub as close to the primary speakers as possible and adjust the sub output until it does not dominate the sound. My thought is that if you can hear the sub, you've either got the output too high or the crossover frequency too high. If there seems to be a "suckout" in the upper bass/low midrange I adjust the sub until it disappears. In the case of the KEF, we thankfully have a "music" setting and a "movie" setting with adjustable frequency (non-discrete settings but rather continuous) and adjustable sub output. The best example of its usefulness in this way is using what I call my "mini" OB speakers (but more correctly should be called "micro" OBs), 3-1/2" FR drivers mounted on a piece of BB ply measuring 12" X 18" and mounted on 24" stands. The drivers are mounted in the centre of these baffles (a nod to asthetics rather than sound for the wife).

weltersys:: Perhaps 15 or 20 years ago, a fellow (who has become a very close friend) demonstrated to me in a high end audio "boutique" (where he was working at the time) the difference using a single subwoofer and the use of 2. There was no comparison. The system being demonstrated consisted of 2 NHT Zero loudspeakers and a pair of the NHT "combined stereo" subs (basically you fed the 2 stereo inputs either high or low level). The subs contained both an active and a passive crossover section, but if input on the right channel only, became mono subs. If using 2 subs that's what you did. The effect was pretty incredible when comparing a single to a stereo pair of subs and was not due to a change in perceived loudness.

"The "classification" of a "TRUE subwoofer" is just a semantic discussion." Yes! I tried unsuccessfully to get some to agree to what a FR driver is, which became a convoluted thread that I finally gave up on.
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