Well, God bless you audiophiles! I have recently become addicted to great sounding audio and building with wood so I have just built some speakers (for home theatre and listening to music) My setup is like so: I have 2x - .71 cu ft. monitor speakers with 6.5" visaton woofers and goldwood piezo tweeters. They sound good being driven by a Crown XLS1000 amplifier.
Here's where I'm stuck. Based on reading all of these positive reviews on parts-express.com for the 15" Dayton Audio Classic Subwoofer for $89 I decided to build a custom box like others have with positive results and bought the sub. I tried hooking up the sub to my crownXLS1000 once I had the sub all screwed into the enclosure (8.26cu ft. with 2x -4" ports tuned to 21hz) and it just isn't performing! I tried everything I can think of to get this puppy working! I thought for sure it was a damaged woofer and parts express sent me several different subs because we both figured the sub was damaged during shipping causing the cone to sieze up. So the speaker will play and will get loud but it's not putting out any "bass" and shaking walls like all the reviews are saying it should with only 100 watts. I give it like 350 watts (amp turned all the way up) and then it starts shaking some stuff in my room but sounds horrible and distorts on the loud bass notes and drum hits. I don't know what's going on here. I tried every possible angle (wiring connections, different channels on amp, different subs). Here are some reviews on parts express which have me believing this sub should be absolutely pounding and shaking down the house at lower level.
"In a 7 cubic foot box tuned to 20hz the excursion peak above the tuning frequency is at about 32hz. You can give it about 125 watts before it exceeds its rated Xmax. With 250 watts input the driver is at about 12mm which SHOULD be within safe limits of the driver but that is just a stab in the dark. I ran mine free air at 20hz and it looks to do more then 1" peak to peak but I ran out of amp power (100 watts) before I could get the driver to bottom!!!"
-mtg90
"I just picked up 4 more of these on the daily special sale.Nice woofers, the first ones I had gotten and broke in at 20hz in free air.Boy do these jump! I would say a inch+ peak to peak.This is likely out of the voice coils xmax range but the raw excursion is there.
I have two 9.2 cf enclosures tuned to 19hz.f3@ 19.25 hz(winisd alpha). Im working on 4 more,considered isobaric arrangement.I plan to run the buttkicker home amp.(I believe Dayton underates wattage, or is one of the only companies with honest power ratings)I think they could handle 250 watts all day long. My daughter was impressed that she could feel her clothes shake at the distance she was from the speakers. Hits very low,smoothly on notes without boominess.Good value!"
-Wickedwolf - 06916
When I ran this sub on the Crown XLS 1000 "free air" it is not moving or getting even close to 1" peak to peak at 100 watts. I have to crank it to like 350 on my amp before it even gets close and then it starts distorting. This is the fourth sub parts express has sent me so I just can't believe it is the sub. It will play music just not sounding like it should I believe from all the other reviews. Also the amp I believe is putting out recommended wattage because hooked up to my other monitors they are acting like they should. Am I missing something here? Anyone know what's going on and why my sub isn't acting the way it should?
Thanks for any and all help!
Here's where I'm stuck. Based on reading all of these positive reviews on parts-express.com for the 15" Dayton Audio Classic Subwoofer for $89 I decided to build a custom box like others have with positive results and bought the sub. I tried hooking up the sub to my crownXLS1000 once I had the sub all screwed into the enclosure (8.26cu ft. with 2x -4" ports tuned to 21hz) and it just isn't performing! I tried everything I can think of to get this puppy working! I thought for sure it was a damaged woofer and parts express sent me several different subs because we both figured the sub was damaged during shipping causing the cone to sieze up. So the speaker will play and will get loud but it's not putting out any "bass" and shaking walls like all the reviews are saying it should with only 100 watts. I give it like 350 watts (amp turned all the way up) and then it starts shaking some stuff in my room but sounds horrible and distorts on the loud bass notes and drum hits. I don't know what's going on here. I tried every possible angle (wiring connections, different channels on amp, different subs). Here are some reviews on parts express which have me believing this sub should be absolutely pounding and shaking down the house at lower level.
"In a 7 cubic foot box tuned to 20hz the excursion peak above the tuning frequency is at about 32hz. You can give it about 125 watts before it exceeds its rated Xmax. With 250 watts input the driver is at about 12mm which SHOULD be within safe limits of the driver but that is just a stab in the dark. I ran mine free air at 20hz and it looks to do more then 1" peak to peak but I ran out of amp power (100 watts) before I could get the driver to bottom!!!"
-mtg90
"I just picked up 4 more of these on the daily special sale.Nice woofers, the first ones I had gotten and broke in at 20hz in free air.Boy do these jump! I would say a inch+ peak to peak.This is likely out of the voice coils xmax range but the raw excursion is there.
I have two 9.2 cf enclosures tuned to 19hz.f3@ 19.25 hz(winisd alpha). Im working on 4 more,considered isobaric arrangement.I plan to run the buttkicker home amp.(I believe Dayton underates wattage, or is one of the only companies with honest power ratings)I think they could handle 250 watts all day long. My daughter was impressed that she could feel her clothes shake at the distance she was from the speakers. Hits very low,smoothly on notes without boominess.Good value!"
-Wickedwolf - 06916
When I ran this sub on the Crown XLS 1000 "free air" it is not moving or getting even close to 1" peak to peak at 100 watts. I have to crank it to like 350 on my amp before it even gets close and then it starts distorting. This is the fourth sub parts express has sent me so I just can't believe it is the sub. It will play music just not sounding like it should I believe from all the other reviews. Also the amp I believe is putting out recommended wattage because hooked up to my other monitors they are acting like they should. Am I missing something here? Anyone know what's going on and why my sub isn't acting the way it should?
Thanks for any and all help!
Is the speaker touching the enclosure and restricting its movement ?
Can you move the cone freely by hand ?
Could be a bad batch of speakers but unlikely.
Have you damaged your amplifier ? does it work ok with other speakers ?
Is the speaker the right impedance ? if it was a high impedance speaker it will take more volts to push it to its limit.
Can you move the cone freely by hand ?
Could be a bad batch of speakers but unlikely.
Have you damaged your amplifier ? does it work ok with other speakers ?
Is the speaker the right impedance ? if it was a high impedance speaker it will take more volts to push it to its limit.
I have tested the speaker 'free air' outside of the enclosure and it acts pretty much the same. The cone will move freely by hand. Don't believe it's bad batch of speakers, it's 4th one ive tried. The amp works fine with other speakers. I have also tried reverse polarity and all different connections. I am stumped, please help someone with what is going on here.
Box design based on measured (or at least manufacturer) ts parameters for this driver?
Any old generic box design is not going to give optimum or possibly even good results.
Is the box solidly built and leak free?
Have you attempted to tune the ports, vary internal box volume or pad the amplifier output with a small series resistance (affects driver qts)?
Can you measure the driver ts parameters and room response?
Any old generic box design is not going to give optimum or possibly even good results.
Is the box solidly built and leak free?
Have you attempted to tune the ports, vary internal box volume or pad the amplifier output with a small series resistance (affects driver qts)?
Can you measure the driver ts parameters and room response?
heres a post of someone else who has used this driver:
"In a 7 cubic foot box tuned to 20hz the excursion peak above the tuning frequency is at about 32hz. You can give it about 125 watts before it exceeds its rated Xmax. With 250 watts input the driver is at about 12mm which SHOULD be within safe limits of the driver but that is just a stab in the dark. I ran mine free air at 20hz and it looks to do more then 1" peak to peak but I ran out of amp power (100 watts) before I could get the driver to bottom!!!"
-mtg90
I did the same test "free air" outside the enclosure and it doesn't even come close to 1" peak to peak excursion at 100 watts. I have to get it up to 350 watts (crown xls1000 turned all the way up) to get even close to that excursion then it starts to distort and sound bad. Not putting out any bass and not 'bumping' you know like it should be. The box should be suitable for the driver but its the box because it SHOULD be acting differently OUTSIDE the box as well and it does not. The box however is suitable for this driver and very solid and leak free. I have no measuring equipment.
"In a 7 cubic foot box tuned to 20hz the excursion peak above the tuning frequency is at about 32hz. You can give it about 125 watts before it exceeds its rated Xmax. With 250 watts input the driver is at about 12mm which SHOULD be within safe limits of the driver but that is just a stab in the dark. I ran mine free air at 20hz and it looks to do more then 1" peak to peak but I ran out of amp power (100 watts) before I could get the driver to bottom!!!"
-mtg90
I did the same test "free air" outside the enclosure and it doesn't even come close to 1" peak to peak excursion at 100 watts. I have to get it up to 350 watts (crown xls1000 turned all the way up) to get even close to that excursion then it starts to distort and sound bad. Not putting out any bass and not 'bumping' you know like it should be. The box should be suitable for the driver but its the box because it SHOULD be acting differently OUTSIDE the box as well and it does not. The box however is suitable for this driver and very solid and leak free. I have no measuring equipment.
Install the driver in the cabinet.
Run a frequency sweep from 15Hz to 40Hz.
You should see almost zero excursion at 21Hz, with lots above and below.
Are you sure the Crown amp isn't cutting the low bass?
Play a 21Hz tone with the driver in the cabinet.
Should see very little excursion, even with the amp cranked.
If you hear any whooshing/whistling sounds, your cabinet has a leak and the whole tuning will be way off, which would explain the lack of output.
Have you ensured the driver is sealed to the baffle?
Have you allowed time to break in the driver?
Run a frequency sweep from 15Hz to 40Hz.
You should see almost zero excursion at 21Hz, with lots above and below.
Are you sure the Crown amp isn't cutting the low bass?
Play a 21Hz tone with the driver in the cabinet.
Should see very little excursion, even with the amp cranked.
If you hear any whooshing/whistling sounds, your cabinet has a leak and the whole tuning will be way off, which would explain the lack of output.
Have you ensured the driver is sealed to the baffle?
Have you allowed time to break in the driver?
Do you have your crown xls1000 configured correctly - to drive the sub you should have the crown configured for LowPass Mode on the channel that is driving the sub.
That 15" Dayton driver has a xmax of only 8.4 mm so in the size of enclosure you have and with the ports you have you should be able to drive that sub very close to maximum output(approx 110db) with just around 100 watts.
btw - what is the length of the ports that you are using ?
That 15" Dayton driver has a xmax of only 8.4 mm so in the size of enclosure you have and with the ports you have you should be able to drive that sub very close to maximum output(approx 110db) with just around 100 watts.
btw - what is the length of the ports that you are using ?
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Thanks everyone for the responses! Yea I've tried multiple settings on the amp. Stereo bypass (all frequencies to sub) and low pass filter at about 80hz and it still won't bump. The ports are 17" long or so. I also hooked up a different amp (crown xls 1500) and it still acting the same way. But yea you know what I'm talking about at just 100 watts in my enclosure or free air it should be getting a lot of excursion and it's just not. Then when I give it more power (almost 350) it starts moving and getting loud but it just gets to be too much power I think for the sub and starts rattling/ distorting and I back the gain off.
Hi,
Your port length looks to be ok.
I do have one "way out there" suggestion for you
I at one point had a couple of the Dayton QT385-4 15" Quatro Subwoofers (the big brother to yours). One of the drivers started to exhibit issues similar to what you are describing - very low output levels and then when cranked up the driver just buzzed and distorted.
It took me a long time to track down what the problem was - it turned out to be that the spider glue line had separated in places from the basket. The only way to check is to remove the driver and run a free air test with some known tracks that have decent LF content.
Instead of looking at the front of the cone, you should get a flashlight and look all around the driver at the area where the spider is glued to the basket - if I'm right, what you will see when the driver is starting to distort and buzz, is that the edge of the spider (where it is supposed to be glued to the basket) will actually be visibly flapping up and down in places against the basket.
If this is it, the fix is very easy - just carefully re-glue the under edge of the spider back on to the basket with some Loctite Super Glue Gel or Loctite Contact Adhesive then give it 24hrs to cure, remount the driver in your enclosure and your good to go - just don't overdrive it or it may pop the glue line again
I'd be very interested to here back if this was the issue and the "fix"
Your port length looks to be ok.
I do have one "way out there" suggestion for you
I at one point had a couple of the Dayton QT385-4 15" Quatro Subwoofers (the big brother to yours). One of the drivers started to exhibit issues similar to what you are describing - very low output levels and then when cranked up the driver just buzzed and distorted.
It took me a long time to track down what the problem was - it turned out to be that the spider glue line had separated in places from the basket. The only way to check is to remove the driver and run a free air test with some known tracks that have decent LF content.
Instead of looking at the front of the cone, you should get a flashlight and look all around the driver at the area where the spider is glued to the basket - if I'm right, what you will see when the driver is starting to distort and buzz, is that the edge of the spider (where it is supposed to be glued to the basket) will actually be visibly flapping up and down in places against the basket.
If this is it, the fix is very easy - just carefully re-glue the under edge of the spider back on to the basket with some Loctite Super Glue Gel or Loctite Contact Adhesive then give it 24hrs to cure, remount the driver in your enclosure and your good to go - just don't overdrive it or it may pop the glue line again
I'd be very interested to here back if this was the issue and the "fix"
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With an Xmax of 8.4mm, peak to peak over 16.8 mm (just over 5/8", not 1") will sound distorted.
A tuning of 21 Hz is very low, a speaker with only 8.4mm Xmax won't get very loud.
Have you measured the SPL when the amp is clipping?
The level controls on the amp do not determine output voltage (or wattage).
How are you determining power level?
Does the amp (like many Crowns) sound like hammered dog poo when it clips?
No, this is the correct tuning, many people have suggested this is the best for this enclosure. According to many others this speaker gets LOUD when played with low wattage in this type enclosure. Many say it shakes the whole house, I feel I know how it should sound. Like a SUB!!! It's just not bumping like you know it should be and according to many others who own this sub and have it in the same type enclosure. I have the volume all the way up on my media player and then crank the gain on the amp (and I've done this in bridge mode) so I know its getting AT LEAST over 100watts. My amp has never clipped so I can't tell you what it sounds like when it does that.
Hi,
Your port length looks to be ok.
I do have one "way out there" suggestion for you
I at one point had a couple of the Dayton QT385-4 15" Quatro Subwoofers (the big brother to yours). One of the drivers started to exhibit issues similar to what you are describing - very low output levels and then when cranked up the driver just buzzed and distorted.
It took me a long time to track down what the problem was - it turned out to be that the spider glue line had separated in places from the basket. The only way to check is to remove the driver and run a free air test with some known tracks that have decent LF content.
Instead of looking at the front of the cone, you should get a flashlight and look all around the driver at the area where the spider is glued to the basket - if I'm right, what you will see when the driver is starting to distort and buzz, is that the edge of the spider (where it is supposed to be glued to the basket) will actually be visibly flapping up and down in places against the basket.
If this is it, the fix is very easy - just carefully re-glue the under edge of the spider back on to the basket with some Loctite Super Glue Gel or Loctite Contact Adhesive then give it 24hrs to cure, remount the driver in your enclosure and your good to go - just don't overdrive it or it may pop the glue line again
I'd be very interested to here back if this was the issue and the "fix"
This might be the problem ... I am just clueless at this point. I mean I feel I've tried everything (all different ways of connections, different amps, different speakers of the same model). And I just don't understand why four of these speakers in a row would be damaged upon arrival from parts express. (They have been really helpful and are an awesome company btw) I just can't see where the problem lies. I will take a look at what your talking about with the spider and basket. I'm new to speaker building so I'm slightly unfamiliar with HOW a speaker works and its parts but I have done many installs have never had this problem before now.
If I can't figure it out and get this sub working I'm going to just return this model and spend a couple extra bucks on the higher quality 15" dayton audio HF Subwoofer from parts express instead.
You need to understand what went wrong before you go further and spend yet more money on another driver.
I have trouble believing that four drivers could be defective, but definitely do check that the spider is not separating from the basket or neck.
Have you checked that the box is really tightly sealed? Block the ports and listen to every joint on this box to make sure they are silent.
If you have a PC or laptop with a decent sound card you can get a mic, cheap mic amp and do some measurements in room. (Or even better outdoors) Parts Express and others sell a cheap measurement device that would allow you to measure the TS parameters of your driver to determine whether it really is a good match to the box you've built..
You can also run down to the local Radio Shack and purchase a couple of power resistors (0.47 ohm and 1 ohm) and try one in series with the woofer and see what effect that has on your issue. (Raising Qts)
Electrical_Factors
Without understanding the root cause of your problem you will probably not achieve the results you are seeking, and would probably be better off buying an assembled subwoofer or kit.
Can you post a couple pix of the subwoofer enclosure, perhaps something will be obvious looking at it.
I have trouble believing that four drivers could be defective, but definitely do check that the spider is not separating from the basket or neck.
Have you checked that the box is really tightly sealed? Block the ports and listen to every joint on this box to make sure they are silent.
If you have a PC or laptop with a decent sound card you can get a mic, cheap mic amp and do some measurements in room. (Or even better outdoors) Parts Express and others sell a cheap measurement device that would allow you to measure the TS parameters of your driver to determine whether it really is a good match to the box you've built..
You can also run down to the local Radio Shack and purchase a couple of power resistors (0.47 ohm and 1 ohm) and try one in series with the woofer and see what effect that has on your issue. (Raising Qts)
Electrical_Factors
Without understanding the root cause of your problem you will probably not achieve the results you are seeking, and would probably be better off buying an assembled subwoofer or kit.
Can you post a couple pix of the subwoofer enclosure, perhaps something will be obvious looking at it.
I hear you but the driver is just not acting like it should OUTSIDE of the box either... Running it "free air" it still does not move or produce sound it should at recommended wattage and when cranked to about 350 it finally gets loud but bottoms out/distorts and sounds bad. The box is sealed well, I ran 20hz test tone and put my ear all around the box it's fine no leaks. It sounds weird like you can hear the driver working inside the box it's just not putting out, sounds distant like its just not getting loud and doing what it should. I checked the spider it's glued fine and attached well. I've talked to a guy with exactly the same setup(enclosure) with this driver and his is acting like a sub should so I don't think the problem is in the enclosure.
Andy,
Your Crown XLS 1000 amp is capable of 350 watts at 4 ohms, 1100 watts 4 ohm bridged.
When it hits the -10 light it puts out about 35 watts at 4 ohms, 110 watts 4 ohm bridged. After the -10 light comes on, but until you see the clip light, you don't know how much power the amp is putting out.
If you turn the amp down and turn your preamp/mixer up, then you can go by the amp input dB markers, adding +3 dB gain over what lights the -10 light would be 75 watts at 4 ohms, 220 watts 4 ohm bridged, +6 over the -10 light would be 150 watts at 4 ohms, 440 watts 4 ohm bridged, etc.
You have a low sensitivity, low tuned box. It won't be loud compared to the usual "kick bins" which may be as much as 10 dB more sensitive (which would sound twice as loud) in the upper bass range.
If it has 85 dB sensitivity it would be capable of only 105 dB with 100 watts, or 115 dB at 1000 watts, though it would probably not take 1000 watts and sound good.
105 dB does not sound very loud if you have heard subs in a car or a club humping at 120-130 dB.
Get a sound meter and read the actual level achieved when it sounds bad.
My bet is you will find it puts out about what it should, 105 clean, 115 maxed.
Art
Luckily I do have a spl meter and did a test. I turned my mixer/preamp up high and then turned the gain knob on the crown about 3/4 way up before the sub started distorting and sounding bad. The spl meter was reading about 85-95 db at this point, depending on which part of the song was playing. The meter on the crown was about -20 to -10. It was running on stereo bypass mode. This was free air outside the enclosure.
Something still don't seem right here, I'm tellin yah from all these other reviews with people with the same enclosure their sub is getting LOUD and shakin stuff and shakin walls. Sme guy says his wife complaining because she can hear it far away another person says their daughter says she can feel it shakin her clothes. This sub I have and the other three before it have done no such thing and aren't sounding like they should, I just wish you guys could see and hear it.
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