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Old 8th October 2012, 05:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
The truth is, in a lot of modern music, electronic in particular, we see tons of information below 35 hz. Sometimes, lots of it, and more as time goes on.
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Gee Dr. Dyna, do you mean some of us have been trying to reproduce electronic music that is not faithful to the "original"?

Taking your point just a little bit more seriously, some of those "compositions" are done for their visual appearance on a scope or software or for their conceptual role. Or for how they sounded on the lousy speakers on the composer's board and are only tenuously related to sound feasting. Curiously, I'd criticize Bach inversion variations that way too as being conceptual variations, not aural variations.

Just because somebody thought they'd program some 18 Hz square-waves (needing 1.8 Hz speakers to "sound" "right"), doesn't make it music anybody else needs to reproduce for pleasure.

And I do mean "sound" "right".

Ben
OK, I admit it, I love to play Vangelis' "Mythodea" which includes a rocketship take-off. And Danley's fireworks and railroad recordings. Nothing more impressive in my collection than railroad boxcars rolling over joints in rails, recorded in the 60s. Talk about loud impact sounds!!!
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Last edited by bentoronto; 8th October 2012 at 05:37 PM.
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:05 PM   #22
djn is offline djn  United States
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Here is a not-to-well-developed thought.

To my ear only (but I've heard others say the same thing) even though my hearing now at my age, dies at 15khz, I can still hear "airiness" if the tweeters are delivering above 15khz.

SO even though in all my music, 99% only goes down to 40hz (for example), would my lower end just sound better, stronger, tighter....whatever, if my system could reproduce down to 20hz?

Like I said, just a thought.
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Old 8th October 2012, 06:23 PM   #23
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post

Just because somebody thought they'd program some 18 Hz square-waves (needing 1.8 Hz speakers to "sound" "right"), doesn't make it music anybody else needs to reproduce for pleasure.
So, your defense is, it's not really music so it doesn't count. While I understand that might be your, or some others opinion, we should be careful not to assume that it's everyone's opinion, to the point where we exclaim universally that musical coverage below 35 hz isn't mandatory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
OK, I admit it, I love to play Vangelis' "Mythodea" which includes a rocketship take-off. And Danley's fireworks and railroad recordings. Nothing more impressive in my collection than railroad boxcars rolling over joints in rails, recorded in the 60s. Talk about loud impact sounds!!!
Agreed, that stuff is great. Speaking of the 60's and 70's, Pink Floyd, as well as some of the newer Roger Waters stuff has got great low frequency content. Take Pink Floyd's "Time" for example, playing this track on a system that rolls off in the 30's versus playing on a system that rolls off at 20 is a magnificent difference.

If I can zip back to the topic of electronic music for a moment, while we're on about the 60's and 70's, even Jim Morrison saw it coming:

Jim Morrison Prophecy - YouTube

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Old 8th October 2012, 06:32 PM   #24
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djn View Post

SO even though in all my music, 99% only goes down to 40hz (for example), would my lower end just sound better, stronger, tighter....whatever, if my system could reproduce down to 20hz?
This is just my opinion, so, grain of salt time. As I've upgraded subwoofers over the years quite a few times, I've noticed that, even though my old one "covered" fairly well, each time I build a new set that go lower or play louder, I seem to get more and more out of recordings that up until that point I had thought I was hearing all of.
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Old 8th October 2012, 07:01 PM   #25
Djim is offline Djim  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by DrDyna View Post
each time I build a new set that go lower or play louder, I seem to get more and more out of recordings
Ah... so all these rattling sounds I hear on your video are part of the recording ;-).
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Old 8th October 2012, 07:19 PM   #26
DrDyna is offline DrDyna  United States
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Ah... so all these rattling sounds I hear on your video are part of the recording ;-).
Haha, naw, that video was done on purpose with the door to the bar open and playing much louder than I usually do. I just thought the walls pulling back and forth enough to make dust fall from the light fixture was funny
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Old 8th October 2012, 08:07 PM   #27
Rojoh is offline Rojoh  Norway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djn View Post

...SO even though in all my music, 99% only goes down to 40hz (for example), would my lower end just sound better, stronger, tighter....whatever, if my system could reproduce down to 20hz?

Like I said, just a thought.
I guess it depends on different things. Everything else equal, lower bass reproduction capacity would be preferable. But sometimes it's a good compromise to sacrifice some of the deepest bass.

I experimented with dual 12" low Qts pro-woofers per side. Hardly anything below 50Hz, but what a tight and hardhitting midbass. Perfect for rock-material.

Personally I could live without the sub-30Hz range, but I would be nice to have it all. I could personally not live with a soft and blured midbass, even if I had strong 20Hz vibes from the system.
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Old 8th October 2012, 08:11 PM   #28
djn is offline djn  United States
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Originally Posted by Rojoh View Post
Personally I could live without the sub-30Hz range, but I would be nice to have it all. I could personally not live with a soft and blurred midbass, even if I had strong 20Hz vibes from the system.
I am in total agreement there R. I was a drummer and bass player when I was young and if that region is muddy, I am not happy.

This will be the first time I've had to deal with room issues as well. I am looking forward to hearing the affect panels have on the accoustics.
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Old 9th October 2012, 07:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by witwald View Post
An f3 at 40 Hz is quite reasonable. However, I prefer to have an f3 of around 30 Hz to better reproduce the full low-frequency sound spectrum that is contained in many recordings. I believe that the lowest note on a grand piano is at approximately 30 Hz, so an f3 at about that frequency would be attenuating the response somewhat. A grand piano is a relatively common instrument, so being able to reproduce its frequency spectrum faithfully seems to be a reasonable requirement for high-fidelity sound reproduction.

Ideally, I'd like to see an f3 of around 20 Hz or so in any high-fidelity speaker system. This generally necessitates the use of a subwoofer.

I analyzed most of my music before deciding on the bass solution, and I discovered that my best piano recordings had output down to 25hz, which is why that was my goal. Most of the electronic music has output under 30hz, but it's usually optimized for output down to 40 or maybe 30hz, what's below 30 is usually horribly bad because the artist or studio probably do not have proper reproduction of those low notes.

So I would actually suggest using a 25-30hz hp filter for most electronic music, and no filter for "proper" music. :-P
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Old 9th October 2012, 07:33 PM   #30
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KaffiMann raises a good point.... in support of Rojoh and DJN and me:

if you want to reproduce a piano well (OK... not really possible, but let's say you want to), somehow having your speakers play to 25 Hz for a once-a-century vibration (which your ears add anyway) is the least of your design purposes.

About DrDyna adding better bass, we all have similar experiences. Lots of non-acoustical reasons, of course. But often it is because the "before" woofer wasn't actually producing the bass we imagined it was. Certainly my experience. TODAY when we say "25 Hz, -6dB" we mean it - not like manufacturer's (or DIYer's) unverified claims of yesteryear.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 9th October 2012 at 07:35 PM.
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