I haven't seen any designs which focus on midbass as opposed to lower extension.
Any designs for midbass tapped horns to be coupled with large sub-bass tapped horns? (potential to mate up to smaller midrange horns)
Possible goals:
Figure 80-300hz (less than 2 octaves)
Smallish size, made from 1/2" Baltic Birch for lightweight
12-15" driver for $200 USD or less price
Just an idea!
Btw not sure if anyone has seen (heard) the 3 way Void horn tops, but I have seen them at the last few parties I've been to. The setups were crossed right to double 18's and lacked some midbass IMO. With the addition of a midbass tapped horn the setup would have been killer!
||| Void Acoustics ||| Changing the way you look at music ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Any designs for midbass tapped horns to be coupled with large sub-bass tapped horns? (potential to mate up to smaller midrange horns)
Possible goals:
Figure 80-300hz (less than 2 octaves)
Smallish size, made from 1/2" Baltic Birch for lightweight
12-15" driver for $200 USD or less price
Just an idea!
Btw not sure if anyone has seen (heard) the 3 way Void horn tops, but I have seen them at the last few parties I've been to. The setups were crossed right to double 18's and lacked some midbass IMO. With the addition of a midbass tapped horn the setup would have been killer!
||| Void Acoustics ||| Changing the way you look at music ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I have built single and double TH using Eminence Kappa 10" speakers.
Below is the response curve for the single, which is only 15" x 15" x 26.5".
It weighs 72 pounds using 3/4" birch plywood.
The dual 10 version was 15" deep by 22.5" tall, 26.5" wide. For PA mid bass use, the exit could be shifted so the cabinet would be 22.5" deep and only 15" tall.
I did some distortion tests on the single, unfortunately burning a portion of the voice coil which was rubbing due to a cobby cone repair Frankensteined together that resulted in uneven voice coil alignment. Also, the test was done in 100 degree temperature with the magnet structure directly exposed to the desert sun, it was too hot to touch when it burned out. Normally I only expose the speaker to high power sine wave for about 2-3 seconds, then wait 10 seconds before advancing to the next tone. In this case, I was (slowly) typing levels, then shifting to the next frequency rather than doing screen shots and extracting info later. I think the driver easily would have easily survived the test if I would have used shorter duration sine wave tones and the driver was shaded.
The upper output is impressive for a box that size, 126 dB using 54V (365 watts @ 8 ohm) one meter with less than 10% distortion. Distortion would probably have been less with a stock Kappa 10", the box works quite well as a drum fill, crossing a pair of 4" above it at around 200 Hz. The picture shows the little 2 x4" with an EV tweeter bolted on to it, used it for side coverage on a recent show.
Art
P.S. The 45 Hz sine wave test was first, it is well below what the cabinet does well. Next test was 60 Hz, where the TH has good kick, then on up to 250 Hz.
I then typed in the frequencies for a 45 Hz and 50 Hz test, but burned up the speaker before finishing typing in the 50 Hz fundamental level, the 45 Hz test was not done.
Below is the response curve for the single, which is only 15" x 15" x 26.5".
It weighs 72 pounds using 3/4" birch plywood.
The dual 10 version was 15" deep by 22.5" tall, 26.5" wide. For PA mid bass use, the exit could be shifted so the cabinet would be 22.5" deep and only 15" tall.
I did some distortion tests on the single, unfortunately burning a portion of the voice coil which was rubbing due to a cobby cone repair Frankensteined together that resulted in uneven voice coil alignment. Also, the test was done in 100 degree temperature with the magnet structure directly exposed to the desert sun, it was too hot to touch when it burned out. Normally I only expose the speaker to high power sine wave for about 2-3 seconds, then wait 10 seconds before advancing to the next tone. In this case, I was (slowly) typing levels, then shifting to the next frequency rather than doing screen shots and extracting info later. I think the driver easily would have easily survived the test if I would have used shorter duration sine wave tones and the driver was shaded.
The upper output is impressive for a box that size, 126 dB using 54V (365 watts @ 8 ohm) one meter with less than 10% distortion. Distortion would probably have been less with a stock Kappa 10", the box works quite well as a drum fill, crossing a pair of 4" above it at around 200 Hz. The picture shows the little 2 x4" with an EV tweeter bolted on to it, used it for side coverage on a recent show.
Art
P.S. The 45 Hz sine wave test was first, it is well below what the cabinet does well. Next test was 60 Hz, where the TH has good kick, then on up to 250 Hz.
I then typed in the frequencies for a 45 Hz and 50 Hz test, but burned up the speaker before finishing typing in the 50 Hz fundamental level, the 45 Hz test was not done.
Attachments
Last edited:
Yeah, Monarch in SF has those tops. Not saying the system sounded complete, but the tops sounded better than most other systems I've heard. Not ear piercing and very neutral sounding.
After a successful build of a pair of TH-18s, I'm also looking to upgrade my tops to match their high quality sound, DIY style.
Art, in another thread a while back, you brought up the idea of designing a top with (3) 6" drivers, IIRC. At what freq would you cross them over down low? What style cab did you see this working in? I'm very interested in designing/building multi-driver tops (synergy horns included).
I don't think tapped horns are the way to go (gasp, right?) for midbass, given the cancelations/peaks they have above their narrow passband. Most Kick Bins are small folded horns, but there are some rear vented horns around which I've been looking at....
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/203503-altec-816-copies-different-woofer-wood.html
Here's a Void Paraflex kick/sub with a vented horn:
http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=54
http://www.voidaudio.com/pdf/plots/Paraflex 360 Plot.pdf
The staysis X and arcline X are also some sort of variation of a horn/vent design....
http://www.voidaudio.com/product_detail.asp?id=54
http://www.voidaudio.com/pdf/plots/Paraflex 360 Plot.pdf
The staysis X and arcline X are also some sort of variation of a horn/vent design....
Last edited:
Thought this was neat, but not small:
my kick horn plans - The Coffin Bin - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 1
I don't recall the 3x6" design, but I built a pair of small FLH/BR 2 x 6" using Eminence Alpha 6" and an APT HF driver.
I had toyed with the idea of making a Synergy type horn, but didn't as the depth would not work for the application.
The raw response of the 2x6T is not very smooth, but once equalized the cabinets sound quite good and get LOUD and clean for their size (26.5 x 15 x11.25) and weight (40 pounds).
I have been crossing them at 100 Hz.
Art
Attachments
Awesome, that's very close to what I'm looking to build from that other thread....any pics or design notes? Thanks!
Hi m R g S r,
The 80-300Hz frequency range is such a critical range that I would suggest a FLH, and when I try to simulate it I always end up with something like the LaScala. Sure would be nice to see a tapped horn, that can outperform this. I'll attach a Hornresp Input screen (more like 90-400Hz).
Regards,
The 80-300Hz frequency range is such a critical range that I would suggest a FLH, and when I try to simulate it I always end up with something like the LaScala. Sure would be nice to see a tapped horn, that can outperform this. I'll attach a Hornresp Input screen (more like 90-400Hz).
Regards,
Attachments
Not much documentation, but the pictures are about all you need. The HF horn angle and center are 20 degree angles, the HF horn entrance is rounded.
The grill is also angled on the top and sides to duplicate the extra flair as seen on the lower part of the HF horn.
Exterior cabinet dimensions are 26.5 x 15 x 11.25 , exterior is 3/4", horn parts are 1/2".
Drivers are Eminence Alpha 6A and APT with the thread to 1" adapter.
A single cabinet can hit around 125 dB in the voice range.
Art Welter
Attachments
Wow great stuff, thanks! Looks like I'm going to try something like this with a delta-10a and a econo-waveguide....
hi welter you could have chosen to combine the highs and mid in paraline mode. but nice work
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/209799-sunshine.html or
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-11.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/209799-sunshine.html or
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/217298-square-pegs-11.html
Hi mRgSr,
Building Tapped Horns for low-mid range is not very useful, efficiency wise. The reason why TH’s are successful for low frequency use is because traditional bass horns with smaller than ideal mouth, drop there efficiency below ½ wavelength. At higher frequencies an ideal mouth area is easier to obtain since the ¼ wavelength becomes smaller. At a frequency of 100 Hz, the quarter wavelength is 'only' 86 cm. Without to much trouble two low-mid horns can have a combined mouth area of 0.74 square metres (1/4 wavelength mouth area for 100Hz).
Secondly, Tapped Horns 'suffer' from a direct signal coming from the tap. At low frequencies this is not a major problem since human hearing is less sensitive at low frequencies. However, when you would design tapped horns for mid-low frequencies, the direct signal can become audible.
Front loaded horns (highest efficiency) or smaller sized bandpass-horns are a better option in my opinion for low-mid range horns.
Building Tapped Horns for low-mid range is not very useful, efficiency wise. The reason why TH’s are successful for low frequency use is because traditional bass horns with smaller than ideal mouth, drop there efficiency below ½ wavelength. At higher frequencies an ideal mouth area is easier to obtain since the ¼ wavelength becomes smaller. At a frequency of 100 Hz, the quarter wavelength is 'only' 86 cm. Without to much trouble two low-mid horns can have a combined mouth area of 0.74 square metres (1/4 wavelength mouth area for 100Hz).
Secondly, Tapped Horns 'suffer' from a direct signal coming from the tap. At low frequencies this is not a major problem since human hearing is less sensitive at low frequencies. However, when you would design tapped horns for mid-low frequencies, the direct signal can become audible.
Front loaded horns (highest efficiency) or smaller sized bandpass-horns are a better option in my opinion for low-mid range horns.
Yes I could have, but as I mentioned in post #8, I had toyed with the idea of making a Synergy type horn, but didn't as the depth would not work for the application.
My main line array PA has been using Paraline elements since 2009.
Art
The speakers using the 90 degree horizontal coverage Paraline HF are, as any "line array", designed for vertical arrays.
The small FLH/BR 2x6T described in post #11 can be used on top of another cabinet with the HF horns coupled when more SPL is needed, or side by side splayed when more horizontal coverage is desired.
Now that I've built a bunch of tapped horns, I've actually come around to a way of thinking that's 180 from how I felt years ago.
I think Geddes and John K are right. For ultra-low frequency, you want a monopole. I'll post some pics of my 15hz tapped horn that I destroyed last week.
Basically tapped horns and vented boxes just can't pressurize the room the way a monopole can.
Paradoxically, I think there are a lot of good reasons to use tapped horns in the next band. For instance, a tapped horn that covers 40-160hz. Here's a few:
- A tapped horn can't pressurize a room the way a sealed box can. BUT a tapped horn is more efficient than a sealed box, at least in the passband above the Schroeder Frequency
- The response blips in a tapped horns are completely exaggerated by Hornresp. Hornresp and Akabak sim the boxes as if the sound is emanating from a single point, not a 10" or 12" radiator (or even larger.) In the real world, tapped horn measurements look a lot more like Art's graphs posted earlier in this thread
- If you juggle the variables carefully, a tapped horn can have lower group delay than a vented box, and sometimes even better than a sealed box, particularly if you're using an active crossover to band-limit the output above the lowest impedance peak.
Hope this wasn't too wordy, but basically I think this is a killer combination:
#1 - a monopole for ULF, just like Geddes uses
#2 - tapped horns in the next band. Ideally, two or three. (I don't think anyone is doing this... yet)
#3 - waveguides or monopoles in the band above that.
A monopole is any speaker where the rear wave is enclosed. (Sealed box, front loaded horn, single reflex bandpass.)
Of those three types, a plain ol' sealed box has the lowest F3 for a given box size. So if your subwoofer is going in a room or in a car, a plain ol' sealed box is tough to beat.
Yes, this is a complete 180 from how I felt up until 2011 or so, so you can find threads on here and Diyma where I argued the opposite
But John K and Geddes convinced me otherwise.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.