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Old 23rd August 2012, 12:17 PM   #21
stewin is offline stewin  Kenya
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thanks patrick. so a labsub and punisher subs are monopole too .
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Old 23rd August 2012, 12:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewin View Post
thanks patrick. so a labsub and punisher subs are monopole too .
True.

But the horn cutoff is around 40-50hz on these boxes. So below that frequency, they're little different than a sealed box.

So you're getting this massive gain from 50hz to 200hz or so, but horn loading is doing nothing for the range from 10hz to approximately 50hz.

That's why sealed boxes are the hot ticket for ULF
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Old 23rd August 2012, 01:12 PM   #23
stewin is offline stewin  Kenya
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
True.

But the horn cutoff is around 40-50hz on these boxes. So below that frequency, they're little different than a sealed box.

So you're getting this massive gain from 50hz to 200hz or so, but horn loading is doing nothing for the range from 10hz to approximately 50hz.

That's why sealed boxes are the hot ticket for ULF
wow thanks i never new that i thought that horns were superior in everything .

o.k that raises up another question how comes labsub is rated at 30hz kf940 at 25hz ,pi labsub at 29hz and they all brag of a flat response from the lowest to around 200hz : is it true or marketing hype?
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Old 23rd August 2012, 01:35 PM   #24
wg_ski is offline wg_ski  United States
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Flat response to rated low end in groups of 4 to 8. If the stack is undersized, the low end droops and you get a rising response with added ripple. It's sort of the horn "equivalent" of baffle step, but it behaves a bit different because of a horn's natural directivity.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 02:38 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
A monopole is any speaker where the rear wave is enclosed. (Sealed box, front loaded horn, single reflex bandpass.)

Of those three types, a plain ol' sealed box has the lowest F3 for a given box size. So if your subwoofer is going in a room or in a car, a plain ol' sealed box is tough to beat.

Yes, this is a complete 180 from how I felt up until 2011 or so, so you can find threads on here and Diyma where I argued the opposite

But John K and Geddes convinced me otherwise.
Not sure I follow you here. Vented boxes (BR) usually have a lower f3, vs. sealed. Along with a very wide bandwidth, reasonable efficiency, and low group delay in the midbass.

Clearly, horns are best for maximizing efficiency at the expense of bandwidth and group delay.

Each type of box has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Last edited by turbodawg; 23rd August 2012 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 07:39 PM   #26
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Hi Patrick Bateman,

Posts #18/20: "...But John K and Geddes convinced me otherwise."

Could you, please, provide references/quotations/links to support that statement, and what frequency range are you talking about when you use the term ULF?

Regards,
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:16 PM   #27
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Hi Patrick Bateman,

Posts #18/20: "...But John K and Geddes convinced me otherwise."

Could you, please, provide references/quotations/links to support that statement, and what frequency range are you talking about when you use the term ULF?

Regards,
Here's some comments from Geddes:

Tapped Horn for Dummies

Note that I'm arguing against him in that thread, but I've come around to his way of thinking after reflecting on what he's written, and also John K

Basically, I believe that tapped horns, vented boxes and dipoles are better suited to frequencies above the Schroeder Frequency
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:26 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tb46 View Post
Hi Patrick Bateman,

Posts #18/20: "...But John K and Geddes convinced me otherwise."

Could you, please, provide references/quotations/links to support that statement, and what frequency range are you talking about when you use the term ULF?

Regards,
I forgot to define "ULF". I'd argue it's anything below th Schroeder frequency

John K and Linkwitzlab reference this in their writings:

Room Acoustics

Believe me this isn't a knock against THs. I <3 'em. But sealed boxes give you more output per square foot in a room or in a car [b]below the Schroeder frequency[b]

One nice thing about FLHs and band pass boxes is that they basically operate like a sealed box below their cutoff, so they potentially offer wider bandwidth than the sims would tell u. For instance, in a car you can tune a band pass to cover one octave from 80hz to 160hz and basically get the three octaves from 10hz to 80hz "for free", because room gain offsets the gentle roll off of a monopole. The same cannot be said for TH or vented.
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Old 23rd August 2012, 09:47 PM   #29
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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I dont remember seeing any TH that was much good above 100hz
but I wouldnt mind to be wrong
so if there is one....?
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Old 24th August 2012, 03:03 AM   #30
tb46 is offline tb46  United States
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Hi Patrick Bateman,

Thank you for the link in Post #28.

It appears to me, that Mr. Linkwitz advocates dipole type (sub)woofers in the referenced writing, and he indicates the Schroeder frequency-for rooms between 1400 and 4000 ft^3-to be between 100 and 200 Hz depending on surface absorption, which would be well above subwoofer territory. As to monopoles he has a write-up on his Thor sealed box woofer, but here he is talking about the range below 40 Hz, and this is not just a box, but a system requiring equalization for optimum results.

Post #27:

I have read through "Tapped Horn for Dummies" more than once, and while there is some discourse between Mr. Geddes and Mr. Danley, I just cannot find anything to support your conclusion that, Post #27: "...tapped horns, vented boxes and dipoles are better suited to frequencies above the Schroeder Frequency".

I'm not sufficiently familiar with John K's writings to have an opinion about his subwoofer preferences.

As to ULF here is a reference for the proper designations of frequency ranges: Frequency bands

I'll attach a quick screen print from this article for reference.

Regards,
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Frequency ranges.jpg (43.0 KB, 289 views)
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