Help needed building a sub...

[gerbruggeman]

At ebay I bought a Pioneer TS-W251 (budget)
After buying it I heard this one is for free-air only, according to Pioneer
The Pioneer TS-W251C is for closed (or vented)-purposes.
I really want to use this free-air-version in a about 60 liter casing (bas-reflex/vented or even 4th order bandpass). My car is the wagon-version, and I think "free-air-subbing" really sucks......

First I tried to make a board that fits in the left-empty space in my Ford Mondeo Wagon ('97, mark2), which contains the TS-W251 (closed, not vented).
I filled the compartmented with damping-material and
clothed the metal from the car with thick carpet.
Result--> at louder volumes the whole car starts shaking and make side-noises, the base is not clean but very distorted. At lower volumes the sound is bearable, but no deep bass at all

It was a long shot, I know.........

I have 3 problems/questions:

1. Can I tune-up the method I described before or is it totally hopeless ( I guess so...., but maybe venting it ? ),
is there a way at all to tune it up ?
Since space is much needed for all the family-stuff it could be an elegant solution.
Any other suggestions ?
2. Pioneer does not have a lot of technical data and the database from WinISD lacks sufficient info (see below)
Who can help me obtaining more data ? (On the web: no luck)
3.
Who has any experience he/she wants to share ?
-->>
WinISD suggest 114 liter for vented and 58/29 for 4th order bandpass. I need a smaller case, but the sub HAS to sound GOOD, not specifically loud, but tight, clean & deep basses. I looked for the closed case first, for less "coloured" results, but I noticed too much decay (-4db at 50hz, -7db at 40hz).

The vented version advised by WinISD is way-too-big (114l) but I am not sure that a 60 or 80 liter will sound good at all.... (I my opinion with a vented system good or bad tuning is very critical and precize).
Partly because I am missing the figures to calculate
(pe and Qes), and the formula in the help file (which suggests guessing a value of "4" for "Qms" in order to calculate Qes)
About the same for the 4yh order bandpass version:
I would like to make a 22/43 or even a 16/38 liter version, but I am not sure if it will work..... (Vas = 43.6 liter)

Here are the specs I got from pioneer:

Qts = 0.54
Vas = 43,6 L
Fs = 43 hz
Z = 4 ohm
SPL = 92.5 db
dia = 25.60 cm
Pe = 120 W
Is with "Pe" RMS power ?
Anyway, according to Pioneer it is 120 watt continue and 300 watt Max....
Freq resp: 18-4000 Hz

Missings specs are:
Re =
Qms =
Qes =
Le =
Xmax =
BL =
Sd =

Who can (please) help me out here ?

 

[Jimmy154]

By bought do you mean it is at your place in France? If you only won the auction I would not send the money

I would suggest sell it and looking for some "credence" subs on ebay. They are almost exactly like old model kicker subs and they'r very cheap. Two subs, that are like the old Kicker Solobaric 10" subs, are like $70, pair of 8's are like $50. Pioneer TS-W251 quality credence 10's are probably like $50 for a pair also.

I bought 2 15's recently they're very nice.

As far as helping you with your free air sub, I will have to express myself with a sad face with questions marks over it, like so

 

[gerbruggeman]

By bought do you mean it is at your place in France? If you only won the auction I would not send the money

No, I got it already, even built it in my car the way I described (By the way:I'm from Holland....).

I would suggest sell it and looking for some "credence" subs on ebay. They are almost exactly like old model kicker subs and they'r very cheap. Two subs, that are like the old Kicker Solobaric 10" subs, are like $70, pair of 8's are like $50. Pioneer TS-W251 quality credence 10's are probably like $50 for a pair also.
I bought 2 15's recently they're very nice.

I noticed prices went up lately, but i will look again for alternatives

As far as helping you with your free air sub, I will have to express myself with a sad face with questions marks over it, like so

No problem, thanx fro the effort anyway

 

[Jimmy154]

One guy sells credence on ebay. They have gone unnotice I assume, so price hasn't changed for months. Very good subs for the money. Those credence 15's I have. I used to have the Kicker version in my car. Very nice sub. That guy sells the 8" versions for $50 a pair. Very low price for that quality sub, check 'em out

Sorry I forgot the order of the strips on the French flag, also confuse it with Russia's flag, thought the name of the town definately did not sound French.

 

[gerbruggeman]

At ebay I saw someone who sells credence:
http://search.ebay.nl/search/search...Price=&maxPrice=&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&st=
He has the name "soundmaker9". Is that the one you're tellin' me about..?
He has 2 kinds of 10" 39 US$ and 59 US$ a pair... I only need one and have to pay a lot shipping costs & taxes to europe (add another 30-40%). I don't know this brand and I also don't if it's a good speaker.
Will it compare with f.i. Boston Pro or Alpine or Infinity Kappa ?

Thanx again.....
( the country thing is not held against you )

 

[Jimmy154]

That's okay, I was born in Europe anyway.

They are just like the old Kicker subwoofers they used to make. The round ones Solobaric D and C series or S12D, S12C, S10C, S10D, etc are the solobarics. They are like Infinity Kappa Quality, actually I think they're nicer in terms of quality. Soundmaker9 that is him, he auctions them off all the time, so he will probalbly have more auctions soon. I would get the 8" solobaric pair if you were going to get one 10" sub. You need like a 600-800 watt amp though.

Kicker has a reputation for being very loud while still sounding good, sorry that's the best I can explain it.

I bought 2 15" subs for $120 that are the same as one sub I bought 2 years ago for my car for $195 (and I thought that was a great deal), let me put it that way.

I read a review for this sub from a man that had 4 15's in his car and he said "they actually kind of hurt." I bought one 15 and I saw what he was talking about, never happened to me with other subs. It made me puke once when I was hungover. But it still had good SQ. Not as good as my a/d/s subs or my Infinity Beta 15, but still good.

 

[GM]

You don't say how much volume it's currently in so can't comment on it beyond it's probably way too small, and combined with 'cabin gain' is probably severely underdamped ('booming').

If so, you can lose the 'boom' by unsealing the baffle from the car slightly to allow some dipole cancellation to take place. While this will 'tighten' it up some, it will also reduce LF output even more. Since it can't go much below 0.54 Qtc no matter how big the cab is (10k liters only drags it down to 0.513 Qtc), 'cabin gain' probably will boost it up to a small amount of 'boom' (>0.7 Qtc) anyway. Still, it may smooth it out enough to tolerate it until you can afford to replace it with an appropriate driver.

Bottom line is that this driver needs lots of Vb to get any LF out of it.

GM

 

[gerbruggeman]

You don't say how much volume it's currently in so can't comment on it beyond it's probably way too small, and combined with 'cabin gain' is probably severely underdamped ('booming').
If so, you can lose the 'boom' by unsealing the baffle from the car slightly to allow some dipole cancellation to take place. While this will 'tighten' it up some, it will also reduce LF output even more. Since it can't go much below 0.54 Qtc no matter how big the cab is (10k liters only drags it down to 0.513 Qtc), 'cabin gain' probably will boost it up to a small amount of 'boom' (>0.7 Qtc) anyway. Still, it may smooth it out enough to tolerate it until you can afford to replace it with an appropriate driver.
Bottom line is that this driver needs lots of Vb to get any LF out of it.GM

Ok thanx for this real good piece of advice !
I wil try to experiment it some more and will let you know

I am looking for an alternative on ebay, but noticed a lot of unknown garbidge is being sold. Suggestions on that part are welcome....
Maybe it's good to point out that I am not looking voor BOOM but for clear, deep, honest, tight base-reproduction. No canonball on wheels, but merely a car with good audio in it (quality being more important than quantity).

 

[gerbruggeman]

They are just like the old Kicker subwoofers they used to make. The round ones Solobaric D and C series or S12D, S12C, S10C, S10D, etc are the solobarics. They are like Infinity Kappa Quality, actually I think they're nicer in terms of quality. Soundmaker9 that is him, he auctions them off all the time, so he will probalbly have more auctions soon. I would get the 8" solobaric pair if you were going to get one 10" sub. You need like a 600-800 watt amp though.
Kicker has a reputation for being very loud while still sounding good, sorry that's the best I can explain it.
I bought 2 15" subs for $120 that are the same as one sub I bought 2 years ago for my car for $195 (and I thought that was a great deal), let me put it that way.
I read a review for this sub from a man that had 4 15's in his car and he said "they actually kind of hurt." I bought one 15 and I saw what he was talking about, never happened to me with other subs. It made me puke once when I was hungover. But it still had good SQ. Not as good as my a/d/s subs or my Infinity Beta 15, but still good.

Maybe you didn't know but I am not looking for a canonball on wheels, but merely a car with good audio in it (quality being more important than quantity). 1x 100 watts will be more than enough for a sub, considering the term "watt" is logarythmic :
to double 1 watt (you have to scream here to talk to one another) in loudness you'll need 10 watts,
to double 10 watts you'll need a 100 watts. And so on
Higher for me is needless......
If I wanna cook my brain I'll stick it in the microwave....

 

[GM]

Since you're in the Netherlands, one of the Peerless car sub offerings seems an obvious choice.

GM

 

[gerbruggeman]

Thanx I contacted a distrubutor for peerless products....
any advice on the 2nd hand department ?