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Old 3rd February 2013, 08:36 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
"Max output" could only be determined by destruction of the driver either thermally or mechanically, not something I have the budget or amplification to do regularly, though mistakes have happened.
I have looked at output levels with music and pink noise on several of my cabinets, but have never been very interested in "max output", more interested in maximum clean output.

To determine distortion, I use sine waves at various frequencies and look at the harmonic output using Smaart's RTA. Since sine waves contain twice the average power of the AES pink noise that most drivers are rated for, the tests must be short, and enough time between test tones so that heat does not build up.

Anyway, I don't know why Patrick revived this thread, PK's specifications give no real data about how loud they are at any given frequency, then he compares a simulation of a cabinet that could not physically be transported to it.
What's the point of my simulations?

The point of my simulations is to create a level of bass that no ones ever heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xU1GrWWGo3I

The video in the link above shows Excision's 'Executioner' stage. It's hard to tell from the video, but the 'Executioner' set basically consists of the following:

1) A big set made of wood and drywall
2) A projector in the back of the room, that throws a 300" video onto the set
3) a DJ, 'Excision', with a laptop. (Obviously no one plays records any more. If I was really cynical I might point out that half the kids would have no idea if that was really Excision up on stage. Taken to the extreme, you'd wear a mask, like 'Deadmau5' or 'Daft Punk' or 'The Knife')
4) a big pile of PK Sound CX 800 subs on either side of the stage.

Click the image to open in full size.
The flyer lists the speakers and the watts. How many rock shows do this? The EDM crowd *really* cares about bass.


Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

As shown in the pics above, the stage sets are becoming a pretty important part of the EDM experience. I'm offering up a subwoofer design that becomes part of the stage, which basically leverages the size of the stage itself to increase efficiency.

YES, it would take an hour to assemble, but these are not small stages any longer. If I'm not mistaken, Electric Daisy Carnival was the biggest concert in the world last year, bigger than U2
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Old 3rd February 2013, 09:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
What's the point of my simulations?
The point of my simulations is to create a level of bass that no ones ever heard.
Simulations don't create bass, cabinets do.

Comparing a simulation using four 21" in a bass horn that ideally would use 27 pieces of plywood to a moderately sized dual 18" (17.7 cubic foot net) bass reflex cabinet one would expect the quad 21" would have a bit more output .

Duh.
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Old 4th February 2013, 12:45 AM   #53
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Yeah pat how many cabinets were used in the array that wowed you? Just curious to get a rough idea of total output
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Old 4th February 2013, 01:12 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEO Dan View Post
How do you reconcile the disparity in quantity, your "box" has the frontal area of >50 conventional cab stack?
Click the image to open in full size.

The main idea is that these guys are building a stage anyways. So if you're already building a stage, and your audience is a bunch of bass heads, why not make the stage a subwoofer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tloy0ldDvVQ

Jump to 0:25 in the video, and you'll see that they've already got a big ol' wall. Adding some subs to the wall is easy/efficient/novel.

Click the image to open in full size.

It's a real live version of the amplifier in Back to the Future

Click the image to open in full size.

Or an homage to Richard Clark


As for your question, about size versus output, the answer is simple. Just keep adding drivers.

For instance, with one driver the 'horn' depth is 3/4". With eight drivers, the depth is 6". These wavelengths are insanely long, so it's easy to add lots of subwoofers without running into cancellation problems. Should be easy to go up to sixteen 21" woofers if you had the budget.
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Old 4th February 2013, 06:04 AM   #55
abcdmku is offline abcdmku  United States
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Funny this post is about PK sound, as Patrick posted about Excision up there^. I just was at an Excision concert last weekend. The bass was intense. I believe there were 24 CX800's the tour brought, plus 12 Nexo CD18's that congress theater has. [just for the bass of course] There were 2 sets of 12+ line array speakers on each side I have a video where you can see them but my phone is dead. Now I didn't look too much into these subs, but are they short throw..? because I was right in front when Excision came on and the bass was stunning. Then later on I went to the back and the bass was not impressive at all. When I last went for, 12th Planet, and before that, Knife Party, just the 12 Nexo's would still pound your chest from the back.
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Old 4th February 2013, 06:17 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by abcdmku View Post
Funny this post is about PK sound, as Patrick posted about Excision up there^. I just was at an Excision concert last weekend. The bass was intense. I believe there were 24 CX800's the tour brought, plus 12 Nexo CD18's that congress theater has. [just for the bass of course] There were 2 sets of 12+ line array speakers on each side I have a video where you can see them but my phone is dead. Now I didn't look too much into these subs, but are they short throw..? because I was right in front when Excision came on and the bass was stunning. Then later on I went to the back and the bass was not impressive at all. When I last went for, 12th Planet, and before that, Knife Party, just the 12 Nexo's would still pound your chest from the back.
I walked around the club a bit until I found a spot with a standing wave. The pressure was intense enough to push the air out of your lungs. Above me I could see that all the air being pushed by the speaker cones was 'dusting' the Exit sign. As in it was literally blowing off a decades worth of grime that had accumulated on top of the sign. (Who needs a dustbuster when you have a pile of CX800s?)

When I moved five feet away from that spot, the bass disappeared, likely because peaks in the room response tend to be right next to nulls, particularly near the edges of the room.

Also, sounds like we've seen a lot of the same tours!

Have seen Knife Party, 12th Planet, Skrillex (twice), Excision and Kill the Noise. All since I discovered the wonders of 30hz bass w/kilowatts amps
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Old 4th February 2013, 06:37 AM   #57
abcdmku is offline abcdmku  United States
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gota love that deep bass. When we were walking to congress theater, we heard the bass from down the street, and they didn't even have it turned up yet. I saw Kill The Noise too, he was with Knife Party. I've been going to a lot of EDM concerts... I could list tons of DJ's xD but the most bass is deff of the Dubstep/Trap concerts. but the most rage/hype is at the Electro House ones, like Steve Aoki. I'm going to EDC Chicago, it's the first one they are doing in the mid west! I can't wait to see the setup they do, and how many speakers they use!
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Old 4th February 2013, 02:26 PM   #58
epa is offline epa  Netherlands
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the problem is,big stages ,using 10+ subs,always use some sort of bass steering(endfire,cardroid),or you wil get unwanted bass at the stage/neighbours.
that is imo not posible with your design.
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Old 4th February 2013, 03:46 PM   #59
NEO Dan is offline NEO Dan  United States
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I'll ask again, how do you get more bass from your fantastical sub than a stack of 50 boxes and the power they are packing?
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Old 4th February 2013, 03:49 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
The main idea is that these guys are building a stage anyways. So if you're already building a stage, and your audience is a bunch of bass heads, why not make the stage a subwoofer?
Some reasons not to make the "stage" a subwoofer:
1. Few performers would prefer being the focal point for all the bass
2. The flat subwoofer would present a sizable unsafe wind load
3. A giant subwoofer is not scaleable for smaller venues
4. A single subwoofer is not steerable
5. Video walls are being used as backdrops
6. Additional set up time with no sonic advantage cuts tour profits
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