So I have been trying to figure this out.
A cardioid setup with a TH based sub (will use TH 115 as base)
Since the cardioid setup is itself the same working phenomenon
as the TH. Is it possible to set TH's in such a setup ?
Ive been trying to figure out how to
nullify the power alley that 2 stacks of 6 SS15's create (3x3). IE typical left/right "stereo" setup. Also to keep it from having that "giving the finger" dispersion characteristic. IE want a nice even sound field with the best projection. Without having that projection rearward to boot.
Anyway. Was looking into Cardioid arraying them.
And the above question hit me.
A cardioid setup with a TH based sub (will use TH 115 as base)
Since the cardioid setup is itself the same working phenomenon
as the TH. Is it possible to set TH's in such a setup ?
Ive been trying to figure out how to
nullify the power alley that 2 stacks of 6 SS15's create (3x3). IE typical left/right "stereo" setup. Also to keep it from having that "giving the finger" dispersion characteristic. IE want a nice even sound field with the best projection. Without having that projection rearward to boot.
Anyway. Was looking into Cardioid arraying them.
And the above question hit me.
epa - already read Rogs work along with others like Rat ,etc etc.
This was really a question directly in regards to a Cardioid array as
I realized that works on the same principal as the TH and since the TH already uses a a phase summation to achieve what it does - how would/could you use it in a Cardioid setup?
As far as my setup goes. That was just a secondary question.
jbell -Not many configurations. Issue that prevent many things is that the SS15 is damn light. For all 12 I do dual vertical stacks of 3x2 with mouths joined and ratchet strap those tight. And always carry rubberized matts case the location doesn't have carpet. At full tilt that want to run around the room. Stack of 4 is worse in that regards.
Also why I never have tried a curved array.
I have tested horizontal vs vertical.
I liked the vertical better. Now that is purely by ear and more than likely is because said stack becomes 6' and means your entire body is being pounded and not just your lower half.
Quick reference to complete setup.
Truss system, 3 sections, with 9' gap between post. JFL-210 (4 per side) vertical array.
Subs directly underneath.
This was really a question directly in regards to a Cardioid array as
I realized that works on the same principal as the TH and since the TH already uses a a phase summation to achieve what it does - how would/could you use it in a Cardioid setup?
As far as my setup goes. That was just a secondary question.
jbell -Not many configurations. Issue that prevent many things is that the SS15 is damn light. For all 12 I do dual vertical stacks of 3x2 with mouths joined and ratchet strap those tight. And always carry rubberized matts case the location doesn't have carpet. At full tilt that want to run around the room. Stack of 4 is worse in that regards.
Also why I never have tried a curved array.
I have tested horizontal vs vertical.
I liked the vertical better. Now that is purely by ear and more than likely is because said stack becomes 6' and means your entire body is being pounded and not just your lower half.
Quick reference to complete setup.
Truss system, 3 sections, with 9' gap between post. JFL-210 (4 per side) vertical array.
Subs directly underneath.
Did you check this out?
http://www.doctorproaudio.com/docto...SettingUp_cardioid-Joan_La_Roda-DAS_Audio.pdf
QSC - Designing & Deploying Line Arrays
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This one has BP6 info on page SIX, similar BP response to a TH.
http://www.nationalaudio.com.au/data/resources/TI330_1.2E(1).pdf
http://www.nationalaudio.com.au/data/resources/TI330_1.2E(1).pdf
BP- I think you've missed the point of the question.
I understand how to do Cardioids. Its just the a TH already uses phase summation to achieve it's output. Therefore directivity already exist to a greater extent than with conventional FLH/RLH/Reflex cabs.
Basically I am looking for the math to use to figure
out how to setup TH's specifically.
I dont have the room indoors
to figure it out by testing. I just signed up for Meyers MAPP software. Though again not TH's.
Think I am gonna go email Danley see if he will respond.
I understand how to do Cardioids. Its just the a TH already uses phase summation to achieve it's output. Therefore directivity already exist to a greater extent than with conventional FLH/RLH/Reflex cabs.
Basically I am looking for the math to use to figure
out how to setup TH's specifically.
I dont have the room indoors
to figure it out by testing. I just signed up for Meyers MAPP software. Though again not TH's.
Think I am gonna go email Danley see if he will respond.
In the DAS PDF article, the second example, 2 forward 1 rearward horizontal array, The rear facing speaker has to be at a higher level to achieve the cancellation.
If the TH cabinets have increased directivity over a BR then this would decrease the difference in drive levels between the cabinets. That could result in higher headroom for the array
If the TH cabinets have increased directivity over a BR then this would decrease the difference in drive levels between the cabinets. That could result in higher headroom for the array
yea, ss15 is light... too light in some respects... it was my primary driving force in it's design. Outdoor grass really helps keep them from 'walking' (as does steel brackets for installs)
If you were to make some 'wedges' maybe 3" at the front... how many cabinets could you ratchet strap together? maybe 6?
Is a center arc 2x6 workable for you?
Yes, A TH array will be the same as any other.
Lay them all together on the floor in a line across the front of the stage. If you have the amps and delays you can group them in mirror image pairs (654321123456) and with delay focus or spread the "beam"
i dont think it wil be much different than br.boxes,but i haven't tested that.
the only"problem"might be that the boxes are not symetric like double 18's for example
I've "kinda" done what flipc has... (4 at a time, not 12)
yes a group of TH's does act different that a group of BR's.
A single TH has directivity, a group, more.... I understand the 'finger' response profile that flip describes. Scott (screamersusa) got a really good example of this when he took a short stack of three and aimed it toward the kitchen of the venue he was in , and knocked stuff off of shelves... I guess the cooks were less than happy....
Arc or delay is one of the few ways I've found to spread the bass wide.
i always tought that lf is omnidirectional?
are you shure it isnt harmonics that are directional?
i totaly agree .
you can make a stack of 6 wide 2 rows ,with the mouth together.
this wil also give directional beam horizontal.
Hi Guys,
The directivity from a single TH is related to the reflection from the front area. There is no directivity like from a horn since the mouth area is too small.
When a group of TH's is stacked and the combined mouth area becomes large enough to act like a horn, the directivity rules for traditional horns should be used to calculate its directivity.
As long a group of stacked TH's are all firing in the same direction there is not much difference from other types of loadings (besides the points as mentioned earlier). If you want to use TH stacks with special side firing cabs and/or backwards firing cabs things becomes complicated. In such case there is a huge difference with basreflex. The acoustic centre in a basreflex is in or near the back of the cab. The acoustic centre of TH's is not near the back and can also vary a lot throughout the bandpass.
The directivity from a single TH is related to the reflection from the front area. There is no directivity like from a horn since the mouth area is too small.
When a group of TH's is stacked and the combined mouth area becomes large enough to act like a horn, the directivity rules for traditional horns should be used to calculate its directivity.
As long a group of stacked TH's are all firing in the same direction there is not much difference from other types of loadings (besides the points as mentioned earlier). If you want to use TH stacks with special side firing cabs and/or backwards firing cabs things becomes complicated. In such case there is a huge difference with basreflex. The acoustic centre in a basreflex is in or near the back of the cab. The acoustic centre of TH's is not near the back and can also vary a lot throughout the bandpass.
Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don't
.In time aligning many BR cabinets, I have found the acoustic center to be about where the cone is, not the back of the cabinet.
A BR cabinet could be made 3 meters deep, the sound still comes from the front of the cabinet
.The TH phase response does change throughout the frequency range, as it also does with a BR or FLH cabinet. If designing a cardioid array, the speaker's phase response must be considered for whatever design chosen.
It appears to me TH have more upper directivity than a FLH of similar frontal area, and quite a bit more than BR.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/184982-tapped-horn-directivity.html
Cardioid arrays are room and cabinet design dependent, sim programs like Meyers MAPP are only 2 dimensional (and based on BR cabinet topology), to determine what will actually occur with different cabinet type arrays (especially cardioid or end fire) at various frequencies still requires testing in the particular venue.
There are starting points one can use that can be determined with theory, but fine tuning on site will be required for best results.
Art Welter
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