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Old 9th December 2011, 04:22 PM   #1
jeffhtg is offline jeffhtg  United States
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Default Looking for the magic perfect sub

Hello everyone!

First time poster - but I've been trolling thru these forums for a bit now. I am currently weighing the options of replacing my current "club" system for EDM dance. (House, Trance, dub, etc).

I have the pleasure of owning 8 lab 12's that have been amazing.. I also have 8x yorkville ls1208's that we use more often since they are a little easier to transport.

Anyways. I'm poking around for TH designs that may be an upgrade. I have seriously thought about biting the bullet on Danley's TH118's. Just want to know if there is something out there that many people have built (like the lab) that is a great high SPL - low extension magic machine. I would like to be around 1000-1500 watts program per box. Preferably with a driver that is easy to source in the USA. Saving money is also a big plus as I would also love to upgrade my tops (kf650E's) to something a little more modern.
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Old 9th December 2011, 04:43 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffhtg View Post
Hello everyone!

First time poster - but I've been trolling thru these forums for a bit now. I am currently weighing the options of replacing my current "club" system for EDM dance. (House, Trance, dub, etc).

I have the pleasure of owning 8 lab 12's that have been amazing.. I also have 8x yorkville ls1208's that we use more often since they are a little easier to transport.

Anyways. I'm poking around for TH designs that may be an upgrade. I have seriously thought about biting the bullet on Danley's TH118's. Just want to know if there is something out there that many people have built (like the lab) that is a great high SPL - low extension magic machine. I would like to be around 1000-1500 watts program per box. Preferably with a driver that is easy to source in the USA. Saving money is also a big plus as I would also love to upgrade my tops (kf650E's) to something a little more modern.
The Keystone sub works well, with the BC18SW115-4 itís phase and frequency response are quite similar to the DSL TH-118.

Glad I got mine when I did, Neo pricing has gone up a lot, but the BC speakers are still worth it.

The Keystone also works well with a pair of Lab 12s, though the upper peak is larger.
It is just over half the size of a LabSub.
Plans are in post #97.

Keystone Sub Using 18,15,&12 Inch Speakers

Art Welter
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Old 9th December 2011, 05:27 PM   #3
jeffhtg is offline jeffhtg  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
The Keystone sub works well, with the BC18SW115-4 itís phase and frequency response are quite similar to the DSL TH-118.

Glad I got mine when I did, Neo pricing has gone up a lot, but the BC speakers are still worth it.

The Keystone also works well with a pair of Lab 12s, though the upper peak is larger.
It is just over half the size of a LabSub.
Plans are in post #97.

Keystone Sub Using 18,15,&12 Inch Speakers

Art Welter
Are you using these in a day to day basis - or on a professional level? How many did you build? I'm not sure if im looking for something more than a good traditional TH as my next step.
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Old 9th December 2011, 08:59 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by jeffhtg View Post
Are you using these in a day to day basis - or on a professional level? How many did you build? I'm not sure if im looking for something more than a good traditional TH as my next step.
Using them for professional PA, one per side.
They are used under 14 horn loaded 8" drivers, and 5 EVDH1A HF drivers per side in a small format line array similar to the VTC system which uses Danley's Paraline and Synergy horn concepts.
Crossed at 100 Hz the lows and mids run out of headroom at about the same level.
With a Crest CA9 mono driving each cab, the pair of Keystones can put out more level at 40 Hz than 8 Meyers 650P dual 18" cabinets.
The CA-9 is only about 2000 watts at clip, I'd like about twice that power behind these cabinets, but the amps are adequate for the shows I do, and allow me to run the PA and 8 monitors off two 20 Amp circuits.

Art

Last edited by weltersys; 9th December 2011 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 13th December 2011, 04:19 PM   #5
jeffhtg is offline jeffhtg  United States
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My search has been a long one and altho there is a wealth of information and people sharing their designs here.. well this is my issue.

1. It seems that most of the designs here are built by an individual once or twice.

2. Tapped horns perform different than the design for various reasons

So.. In a perfect world does there exist a tapped horn equivalent like the lab sub project? One that many people have modeled, built, improved.. It seems on every thread I find something interesting I come across 3 more designs.. its rather frustrating trying to find what should work best for me.
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:22 PM   #6
Xoc1 is offline Xoc1  United Kingdom
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Location: Devon UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffhtg View Post
So.. In a perfect world does there exist a tapped horn equivalent like the lab sub project? One that many people have modeled, built, improved.. It seems on every thread I find something interesting I come across 3 more designs.. its rather frustrating trying to find what should work best for me.
I think that the amount of different TH projects on DIYaudio is its strength,
The designs have developed, and are far more advanced than they were a couple of years ago. Many people have contributed many hours of research and shared it freely in a global R & D team.
There is no outright winner as every design has is different strengths an weaknesses and is built to do a specific job.
The Danley TH118 still sets the standard, But here are aspects of the 'Hype'
surrounding the performance of the design that I am still to understand.
Like the DB Plot being measured at 2.83V with a 4 ohm driver. Should we start comparing our 8 ohm cabs at 4V to compete?
I believe that DIYaudio is on the cutting edge when it comes to TH design. If you know of anywhere else with such a wealth of knowlege please let us know.
As for what is right for you, it is difficult to know!
You have already have built multiple FLH horns which most of us concider to be the ultimate in scale when it comes to PA design. Most here concider the TH to be the middle ground between Reflex and FLH subwoofers.
Regards
Martin (Xoc1)
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Old 13th December 2011, 08:25 PM   #7
jeffhtg is offline jeffhtg  United States
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Originally Posted by Xoc1 View Post
I think that the amount of different TH projects on DIYaudio is its strength,
The designs have developed, and are far more advanced than they were a couple of years ago. Many people have contributed many hours of research and shared it freely in a global R & D team.
There is no outright winner as every design has is different strengths an weaknesses and is built to do a specific job.
The Danley TH118 still sets the standard, But here are aspects of the 'Hype'
surrounding the performance of the design that I am still to understand.
Like the DB Plot being measured at 2.83V with a 4 ohm driver. Should we start comparing our 8 ohm cabs at 4V to compete?
I believe that DIYaudio is on the cutting edge when it comes to TH design. If you know of anywhere else with such a wealth of knowlege please let us know.
As for what is right for you, it is difficult to know!
You have already have built multiple FLH horns which most of us concider to be the ultimate in scale when it comes to PA design. Most here concider the TH to be the middle ground between Reflex and FLH subwoofers.
Regards
Martin (Xoc1)
Is there a longer tapped horn that has both the benefits of the longer horn length as well as the loading of both sides of the driver? My biggest problem with the lab.. is I'd like to be able to use 3-4 per side.. and they don't really get REALLY nice until you have 6 together.. hence my turning to TH style designs..
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Old 14th December 2011, 04:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffhtg View Post
My search has been a long one and altho there is a wealth of information and people sharing their designs here.. well this is my issue.

1. It seems that most of the designs here are built by an individual once or twice.

2. Tapped horns perform different than the design for various reasons

So.. In a perfect world does there exist a tapped horn equivalent like the lab sub project? One that many people have modeled, built, improved.. It seems on every thread I find something interesting I come across 3 more designs.. its rather frustrating trying to find what should work best for me.
All horns perform different than their simulations.

I modeled, then built and improved the Keystone design with dozens of different tests and rebuilds prior to calling it finished.

What improvements, other than cosmetic and thermal are you aware of in the Lab 12 design?

The Labsub works well, but needs a large mouth area (multiple units) to have good LF response.

Tapped horns don't have that drawback.
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Old 15th December 2011, 09:01 AM   #9
jeffhtg is offline jeffhtg  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
All horns perform different than their simulations.

I modeled, then built and improved the Keystone design with dozens of different tests and rebuilds prior to calling it finished.

What improvements, other than cosmetic and thermal are you aware of in the Lab 12 design?

The Labsub works well, but needs a large mouth area (multiple units) to have good LF response.

Tapped horns don't have that drawback.
Right. I get that. And with the labs typically I would have to stack them UP - and could only do about 4 high. So 4 per side like this is not giving me the ideal mouth area. (2x2 would be much better). I'm wondering if the TH would be a better box in this particular situation.
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Old 15th December 2011, 05:42 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jeffhtg View Post
Right. I get that. And with the labs typically I would have to stack them UP - and could only do about 4 high. So 4 per side like this is not giving me the ideal mouth area. (2x2 would be much better). I'm wondering if the TH would be a better box in this particular situation.
The shape of the stack determines dispersion, a 4 high stack will have a more narrow vertical dispersion, a 2x2 will narrow horizontal dispersion.
Which is "much better" depends on the coverage pattern desired, and if you are putting top cabinets on the stack, the appropriate height for them.

As far as the Keystone TH being "better", in terms of output per cubic foot of truck space, yes.

In terms of LF extension, with four Labsubs per side, the Labsubs go lower by about 5 Hz.
The Keystone goes lower than one Labsub, TH frequency LF corner does not change in arrays.

If you want that last bit of LF, and don't mind Labsub size cabinets, you could design something in between the Keystone (or Xoc's TH-18, which goes slightly lower than the Keystone) and the Gjallerhorn, which presently is the flat out LF winner.

Josh Ricci’s Gjallerhorn at 2 meter, ground plane, outdoors measures:
10hz 90.2db
12.5hz 105.2db
16hz 118.3db
20hz 122db
25hz 124.9db
31.5hz 125.8db
40hz 128.4db
50hz 127.2db
63hz 130.2db
80hz 130.9db
100hz 131.1db
125hz 123.6db

Add 6 dB to those figures for a one meter equivalancy, and another 6 to 12 dB for indoor corner loading.

To determine what is "perfect" for you, you need to define the following:

1) Size and shape of the array.
2) Acceptable size, shape and weight of individual cabinets.
3) Acceptable power requirements.
4) Desired frequency response.
5) Cost limits.
6) Sound quality.
7) SPL level at various frequencies.

Each of the seven are interrelated, change any one and the “perfect “ sub becomes a different one.

All subs are a compromise.

Art Welter

Last edited by weltersys; 15th December 2011 at 05:51 PM.
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