I would like to build a pa rig, that i can use for dubstep, mainly trance, and rap. It is for about 100 to 500 people in a school gym size.
I would like to keep the price of the woofer under $300 for one.
I was looking at the peavey low rider 18", but i do not know how it would handle stuff like dubstep, mainly trance, and rap.
Also i was looking at the IXL-18 (iST Ltd.) because it cost the same as the peavey where i live. and it blow my friends front door on his house. I also know about the sensitivity is not as good as pa speakers.
But how would it handle in a pa setting, compared to the peavey.
I would like to keep the price of the woofer under $300 for one.
I was looking at the peavey low rider 18", but i do not know how it would handle stuff like dubstep, mainly trance, and rap.
Also i was looking at the IXL-18 (iST Ltd.) because it cost the same as the peavey where i live. and it blow my friends front door on his house. I also know about the sensitivity is not as good as pa speakers.
But how would it handle in a pa setting, compared to the peavey.
you can take a look at Rog`s site here lots of interesting stuff`. Best regards Moray James.
Speakerplans.com
Speakerplans.com
I've never actually listened to dubstep, but to my knowledge the reason for this is because dub step has lots of infrasonic content IE 15hz right?
The solution, then isn't to go away from a horn, but rather to find the right horn for the job.... the Gjallerhorn
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/189784-gjallerhorn.html
I'm not sure if the Mach V Pi 18 is a drop in replacement for the LMS but it'd be what i'd be looking at.
Hello,
This will be my first post here so lets see how I do....
In my experience most sound reinforcement sub designs are based on maximizing efficiency and SPL capability in the ~35-100 hz range (range varies some but this is a general ballpark that most systems shoot for). Modern electronic music is creating a demand for reproduction in the "bottom active" (~20-40hz) but very few designs out there are geared towards that. The driver characteristics of the peavey low rider are typical of sound reinforcement drivers. Maximize efficiency, drop the bottom octave. The peveay can be forced to play the lower frequencies either at the cost of quite a bit of efficiency and box size, or at the cost of raw amplification power and efficiency. Or some mixture of all of the above. Ideally speaking, it's better to try to find a driver (or multiple drivers) that share a more ideal set of characteristics to stay reasonably efficient in the bottom end. In my experience, this usually means having more driver surface area.
Extraordinarily long "throw" woofer designs do not lend themselves to efficiency and generally suffer from NEEDING enourmous amplification in order to play loud regardless of box design. I recommend increasing displacement via surface area rather than via excursion. Increasing driver surface area will reduce demands on amplification and improve the long term reliability of the system as you can have drivers and amplifiers that are not overworked.
Consider the following graphs..
Comparison of efficiency (simulated 100W input):
Comparison of maximum output as limited by Xmax and power handling:
The pinkish line is a single peveay low rider.
The white line is 2 X 18" classic subs.
The orange line is 8 X dayton 10" "DVC" subs.
The yellow line is a single IST 18" unit.
All of those listed above are given 24ft^3, vented, and tuned to 23hz to work in. Each configuration would have about the same driver cost as well (~$250)
The light yellow line is the IST unit in a 24ft^3 sealed box.
The Green line is what the peveay low rider is really more well suited to do. It's a 14 cu-ft 6th order bandpass configuration. One of many possible loading options that brings out better efficiency and maximum output where most music needs it but leaves the bottom octave off.
Notice how using more drivers, even though they are less efficient drivers, actually results in an improvement in system efficiency and maximum output across most of the desired range.
I should point out that I tried to keep things fair across the board on the comparisons by giving each speaker system the same amount of box space... Another comparison that's important to point out is that each of these driver configurations would actually have different ideal box sizes where you get a nice tradeoff of efficiency vs box size. The 8x10" dayton drivers would actually benefit from more box space and with added box space will actually provide greater efficiancy than any of the other options compared . The 2x18" daytons are ideal with ~12ft^3 per box as it is. The peveay doesn't need 24ft^3, half that much would be fine. the IST unit is very unusual in that it delivers a near flat performance right down to ~20hz in a box as small as ~7ft^3 (but requires an additional ~3ft^3 just for a port large enough to tune it without major puffing noises)
------------------------
Seriously consider using more drivers, A single 18" is going to have a hard time with a 500 person venue IMO.
Eric
This will be my first post here so lets see how I do....
In my experience most sound reinforcement sub designs are based on maximizing efficiency and SPL capability in the ~35-100 hz range (range varies some but this is a general ballpark that most systems shoot for). Modern electronic music is creating a demand for reproduction in the "bottom active" (~20-40hz) but very few designs out there are geared towards that. The driver characteristics of the peavey low rider are typical of sound reinforcement drivers. Maximize efficiency, drop the bottom octave. The peveay can be forced to play the lower frequencies either at the cost of quite a bit of efficiency and box size, or at the cost of raw amplification power and efficiency. Or some mixture of all of the above. Ideally speaking, it's better to try to find a driver (or multiple drivers) that share a more ideal set of characteristics to stay reasonably efficient in the bottom end. In my experience, this usually means having more driver surface area.
Extraordinarily long "throw" woofer designs do not lend themselves to efficiency and generally suffer from NEEDING enourmous amplification in order to play loud regardless of box design. I recommend increasing displacement via surface area rather than via excursion. Increasing driver surface area will reduce demands on amplification and improve the long term reliability of the system as you can have drivers and amplifiers that are not overworked.
Consider the following graphs..
Comparison of efficiency (simulated 100W input):
Comparison of maximum output as limited by Xmax and power handling:
The pinkish line is a single peveay low rider.
The white line is 2 X 18" classic subs.
The orange line is 8 X dayton 10" "DVC" subs.
The yellow line is a single IST 18" unit.
All of those listed above are given 24ft^3, vented, and tuned to 23hz to work in. Each configuration would have about the same driver cost as well (~$250)
The light yellow line is the IST unit in a 24ft^3 sealed box.
The Green line is what the peveay low rider is really more well suited to do. It's a 14 cu-ft 6th order bandpass configuration. One of many possible loading options that brings out better efficiency and maximum output where most music needs it but leaves the bottom octave off.
Notice how using more drivers, even though they are less efficient drivers, actually results in an improvement in system efficiency and maximum output across most of the desired range.
I should point out that I tried to keep things fair across the board on the comparisons by giving each speaker system the same amount of box space... Another comparison that's important to point out is that each of these driver configurations would actually have different ideal box sizes where you get a nice tradeoff of efficiency vs box size. The 8x10" dayton drivers would actually benefit from more box space and with added box space will actually provide greater efficiancy than any of the other options compared . The 2x18" daytons are ideal with ~12ft^3 per box as it is. The peveay doesn't need 24ft^3, half that much would be fine. the IST unit is very unusual in that it delivers a near flat performance right down to ~20hz in a box as small as ~7ft^3 (but requires an additional ~3ft^3 just for a port large enough to tune it without major puffing noises)
------------------------
Seriously consider using more drivers, A single 18" is going to have a hard time with a 500 person venue IMO.
Eric
I built a low tuned sub that would get into the teens range. I could feel my wooden floor resonate at 20Hz and make little ripples of water in the sink but because human hearing response rolls off quite a bit, the bass lacked impact of the higher frequencies. I agree with the others and not worry about trying to get so low. Build a sub with an F3 point in the mid 30Hz range and enjoy the impact of the bass you can hear (and feel).
thanks mdocod for the info.
I have built the tuba 60 horn witch can handle the very low bass, but is is big. I could build more but don't want to.
I know i have to use 4 18" driver to start. And i am ok with big boxes, most likely any 18" box is not going to be bigger than the tuba 60 lol.
So i should:
"recommend increasing displacement via surface area rather than via excursion" look for 21" drivers (but do 21" woofers lack punch?) or
have 4 or so of the IXL - 18. or
just get a good box for the 18" low rider and hi- pass at 25HZ - 30HZ.
but i would like to have the low bass. But i manly play trance/ house so it is not really a big deal if i hi - pass the subs at 30Hz.
I have built the tuba 60 horn witch can handle the very low bass, but is is big. I could build more but don't want to.
I know i have to use 4 18" driver to start. And i am ok with big boxes, most likely any 18" box is not going to be bigger than the tuba 60 lol.
So i should:
"recommend increasing displacement via surface area rather than via excursion" look for 21" drivers (but do 21" woofers lack punch?) or
have 4 or so of the IXL - 18. or
just get a good box for the 18" low rider and hi- pass at 25HZ - 30HZ.
but i would like to have the low bass. But i manly play trance/ house so it is not really a big deal if i hi - pass the subs at 30Hz.
Increasing surface area and box size generally improves efficiency. That said, amplifier power isn't all that expensive so the problem can be solved either way. When it is practical to have more speaker surface area and box size I suggest leaning that direction. When it is not practical to do so, plan on finding more power to achieve the same results. You also have to weigh your own time in the matter. While buying more cheaper drivers and building more large boxes for them will work very well, it will require more construction time and materials and more setup and tear down time.
If you think you'll be moving the speakers a lot, go for smaller boxes, less drivers, and more amplification power. If it is a stationary install where size is not an issue, bring on the refrigerators baby.
21" drivers can be a blessing and a curse. You really only should buy into quality made drivers at that size as the cheaper ones really seem to get a bad reputation for good reasons. From what I understand the $500 RCF 21" driver is top notch and used in studio/reference settings frequently.
RCF LF21N451 21" Neodymium Woofer Speaker 294-895
Here's some more comparisons to consider....
Charts below are 3x RCF 21" drivers in a 30ft^3 of box space compared to 5x low riders in 50ft^3 compared to 8 x dayton classic 18" woofers in 80ft^3 compared to 8x dayton 18" pro drivers. All configurations are tuned to 20hz.
The Dayton drivers I am talking about are here:
Dayton Audio DCS450-4 18" Classic Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-475
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer 295-036
The 3x21"RCF configuration would be $1500 worth of drivers, and you should plan on 2000-6000W of amplification. The boxes will be small and manageable. (just built 3 separate boxes for easy portability)
The 5x low rider configuration would be $1250 worth of drivers, and you should plan on ~750-2250W of amplification. However there will be some more box size and weight to haul about and deal with. Maybe 2 pairs and a single could work here. (while not charted, it may be more practical for wiring and amplifier loading reasons to do 4 or 6 drivers here, I chose 5 because I think it made for the most interesting comparison point on paper)
The 8x Dayton classic woofer configuration would be $1000 worth of drivers. 750-2250W range would be fine as well for these. I'd suggest 4 x 20ft^3 boxes, 2 drivers per box. These will match the RCF configuration on the low end with 1/3rd the amplification and 1/3rd less driver cost, but much more box cost/space.
The 8x Dayton Pro woofers will also cost ~$1000, will take up a lot of space, but will only require ~500-1500W to play nice and loud. I'd suggest 4 x 20ft^3 boxes 2 drivers per box. Performance here is equal to the 5x low rider drivers, but has lower driver and amplification costs, but higher box size/costs.
Simulated maximum SPL possible (Accounting for Xmax and PE)
Now a simulated amplifier power required to produce the chart above:
Without major EQ work, you can pretty much figure on the maximum power handling of the speaker system while remaining linear (inside of Xmax rating) as being the bottom of those "dips" in the maximum power. When you factor in that signal level to the speaker system you get the following simulated performance:
As you can see, there is a pretty dramatic difference in amplification power, but not very much difference in final output levels.
The RCF system would be good in venues where you have access to the sort of mains power you will need to power them. I suspect that of the bunch, they may be the best sounding lowest distortion option if you can get enough clean amplification. These would probably also be more "impressive" to any audio "buffs" in the crowd as you can brag about the big amplification power and the rare 21" drivers. Dropping down to 2 of these drivers would probably work well enough as well, especially if you give them a little more box space and maybe tune a few hz higher.
The Low Riders would be a great in-between option. I used 5 in the comparison because it represented a better comparison IMO, however, I think you could do well with 4 of these drivers. 6 would be killer.
The Dayton options should both be considered seriously, especially with their lower driver cost and lower power requirements. I would lean towards the pro drivers as I suspect they would have tighter transients and a more composed sound. Dropping to 6 of these would probably be plenty, again, just used 8 in the comparison because it made for a nice contrast of price points.
While I used 20hz as the tuning frequency for all of those comparisons, I would probably not use that as my goal tuning frequency when it came time to actually choose a driver and build the boxes. I would probably go for a tuning in the 23-27hz range here for your application.
-------------------------------------
Hope I haven't muddied things up
Eric
If you think you'll be moving the speakers a lot, go for smaller boxes, less drivers, and more amplification power. If it is a stationary install where size is not an issue, bring on the refrigerators baby.
21" drivers can be a blessing and a curse. You really only should buy into quality made drivers at that size as the cheaper ones really seem to get a bad reputation for good reasons. From what I understand the $500 RCF 21" driver is top notch and used in studio/reference settings frequently.
RCF LF21N451 21" Neodymium Woofer Speaker 294-895
Here's some more comparisons to consider....
Charts below are 3x RCF 21" drivers in a 30ft^3 of box space compared to 5x low riders in 50ft^3 compared to 8 x dayton classic 18" woofers in 80ft^3 compared to 8x dayton 18" pro drivers. All configurations are tuned to 20hz.
The Dayton drivers I am talking about are here:
Dayton Audio DCS450-4 18" Classic Subwoofer 4 Ohm 295-475
Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer 295-036
The 3x21"RCF configuration would be $1500 worth of drivers, and you should plan on 2000-6000W of amplification. The boxes will be small and manageable. (just built 3 separate boxes for easy portability)
The 5x low rider configuration would be $1250 worth of drivers, and you should plan on ~750-2250W of amplification. However there will be some more box size and weight to haul about and deal with. Maybe 2 pairs and a single could work here. (while not charted, it may be more practical for wiring and amplifier loading reasons to do 4 or 6 drivers here, I chose 5 because I think it made for the most interesting comparison point on paper)
The 8x Dayton classic woofer configuration would be $1000 worth of drivers. 750-2250W range would be fine as well for these. I'd suggest 4 x 20ft^3 boxes, 2 drivers per box. These will match the RCF configuration on the low end with 1/3rd the amplification and 1/3rd less driver cost, but much more box cost/space.
The 8x Dayton Pro woofers will also cost ~$1000, will take up a lot of space, but will only require ~500-1500W to play nice and loud. I'd suggest 4 x 20ft^3 boxes 2 drivers per box. Performance here is equal to the 5x low rider drivers, but has lower driver and amplification costs, but higher box size/costs.
Simulated maximum SPL possible (Accounting for Xmax and PE)
Now a simulated amplifier power required to produce the chart above:
Without major EQ work, you can pretty much figure on the maximum power handling of the speaker system while remaining linear (inside of Xmax rating) as being the bottom of those "dips" in the maximum power. When you factor in that signal level to the speaker system you get the following simulated performance:
As you can see, there is a pretty dramatic difference in amplification power, but not very much difference in final output levels.
The RCF system would be good in venues where you have access to the sort of mains power you will need to power them. I suspect that of the bunch, they may be the best sounding lowest distortion option if you can get enough clean amplification. These would probably also be more "impressive" to any audio "buffs" in the crowd as you can brag about the big amplification power and the rare 21" drivers. Dropping down to 2 of these drivers would probably work well enough as well, especially if you give them a little more box space and maybe tune a few hz higher.
The Low Riders would be a great in-between option. I used 5 in the comparison because it represented a better comparison IMO, however, I think you could do well with 4 of these drivers. 6 would be killer.
The Dayton options should both be considered seriously, especially with their lower driver cost and lower power requirements. I would lean towards the pro drivers as I suspect they would have tighter transients and a more composed sound. Dropping to 6 of these would probably be plenty, again, just used 8 in the comparison because it made for a nice contrast of price points.
While I used 20hz as the tuning frequency for all of those comparisons, I would probably not use that as my goal tuning frequency when it came time to actually choose a driver and build the boxes. I would probably go for a tuning in the 23-27hz range here for your application.
-------------------------------------
Hope I haven't muddied things up
Eric
fyi
ive scanned some dubstep for another diy-er on this forum.
as you can see there is next to none content below 30hz.
i advice you to examine your music(or post it here,i can scan it for you)
then you decide how low and loud you think is resonable to your wallet and your back
here is a scan
here are some topics of 30 to 35hz tapped horns.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/193418-othorn-tapped-horn.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/178029-c-e-x-pa-flat-30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/201249-18tbx100-vs-2lab12.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/189551-r-evenge-c-omes-f-orce.html
and many more
ofcource people here are happy to help you with designing something for you
ive scanned some dubstep for another diy-er on this forum.
as you can see there is next to none content below 30hz.
i advice you to examine your music(or post it here,i can scan it for you)
then you decide how low and loud you think is resonable to your wallet and your back
here is a scan
here are some topics of 30 to 35hz tapped horns.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/190635-th-18-flat-35hz-xoc1s-design.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/193418-othorn-tapped-horn.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/178029-c-e-x-pa-flat-30-ft30-pa-th-awesomeness.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/201249-18tbx100-vs-2lab12.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/189551-r-evenge-c-omes-f-orce.html
and many more
ofcource people here are happy to help you with designing something for you
Last edited:
I just want to say thanks for everyone helping so far. I appreciate the help.
The daytons look good, and need a lot less power.
And i don't think i would go with the 21".
How important is driver Displacement volume?
Speakerplans.com takes about it; being of some important (Speakerplans.com)
To me it seems that at low fz, it is about displacement.
Here is three tracks that i had played not to long ago.
i can add the flac files, but here is the youtube link.
Filthiest Dubstep Drops Ever !!!! Part 4 [HD] - YouTube
Hard Trance Classics Mix on Going Quantum - YouTube
The Best Drum n Bass 2011 - YouTube
The daytons look good, and need a lot less power.
And i don't think i would go with the 21".
How important is driver Displacement volume?
Speakerplans.com takes about it; being of some important (Speakerplans.com)
To me it seems that at low fz, it is about displacement.
Here is three tracks that i had played not to long ago.
i can add the flac files, but here is the youtube link.
Filthiest Dubstep Drops Ever !!!! Part 4 [HD] - YouTube
Hard Trance Classics Mix on Going Quantum - YouTube
The Best Drum n Bass 2011 - YouTube
Hi Jhon,
One advice, just make sure you 'walk trough' in the right order:
1. First investigate the differences between the systems as offered by the forum members; basreflex, bandpass, hybrid, tapped horn and maybe front loaded horn (otherwise you have no idea what people are suggesting/offering)
2. Decide what size you can handle (transport) since the bigger they are, the louder and/or the lower they will go.
3. Then look for highest efficiency you can get for your size (efficiency is not the same as sensitivity) that is able to play the bandwidth you want/need. Another option is to design them yourself since there a lot of people here that can help you out if needed.
4. Make a choice for loudspeakers with the max volume displacement (and often strongest motor) that fits the system and amplifier that is able to power them. Of course make sure it all fits in your budget.
5. Buy, build & enjoy...
One advice, just make sure you 'walk trough' in the right order:
1. First investigate the differences between the systems as offered by the forum members; basreflex, bandpass, hybrid, tapped horn and maybe front loaded horn (otherwise you have no idea what people are suggesting/offering)
2. Decide what size you can handle (transport) since the bigger they are, the louder and/or the lower they will go.
3. Then look for highest efficiency you can get for your size (efficiency is not the same as sensitivity) that is able to play the bandwidth you want/need. Another option is to design them yourself since there a lot of people here that can help you out if needed.
4. Make a choice for loudspeakers with the max volume displacement (and often strongest motor) that fits the system and amplifier that is able to power them. Of course make sure it all fits in your budget.
5. Buy, build & enjoy...
Displacement volume is important to an extent but keep in mind that when dealing in box designs that are not sealed, driver displacement alone does not paint the whole picture. A reflex enclosure creates a condition where the effective displacement is "shared" between the vent and speaker diaphragm, and where the effective displacement is often far greater than the measured displacement of the driver alone. This allows a much more efficient relationship that can make better use of available amplification and power handling.
Since you are interested in those Dayton units I wanted to share the following:
This is the previous 20hz tuning w/80ft^3 box, vs a 27hz tuning w/80ft^3 box, vs a 33hz tuning w/60ft^3.
Power:
"Minimum" PE (which should be used as a guideline for maximum drive levels) goes from 850W up to 1200W, then up to 1800W as a result of the new tuning configurations.
Apply that amplification level and you get the following estimated SPL:
The same improvement in power handling and maximum output occurs about equally with all of the other driver configurations I compared previously. In fact, the RCF units can play at their full rated 4500W RMS without going non-linear with the 27hz tuning or higher, but that's still only good for about 1-2db better in the bottom end than the 8x daytons at ~1/4 the power requirement.
Eric
Since you are interested in those Dayton units I wanted to share the following:
This is the previous 20hz tuning w/80ft^3 box, vs a 27hz tuning w/80ft^3 box, vs a 33hz tuning w/60ft^3.
Power:
"Minimum" PE (which should be used as a guideline for maximum drive levels) goes from 850W up to 1200W, then up to 1800W as a result of the new tuning configurations.
Apply that amplification level and you get the following estimated SPL:
The same improvement in power handling and maximum output occurs about equally with all of the other driver configurations I compared previously. In fact, the RCF units can play at their full rated 4500W RMS without going non-linear with the 27hz tuning or higher, but that's still only good for about 1-2db better in the bottom end than the 8x daytons at ~1/4 the power requirement.
Eric
ok
I have built horns, and dislike the end result. The horns never impress me
. To me sealed and ported boxes sound the best. I don't care about size as long as it can fit throw a door, and is not 1.5m high.
Amp power is not a problem because amps are bigger, lighter, and cheaper.
The speaker that i think is good is the IXL-18 or the Pi-18. both have dig motors, flat response, good price and would handle the music. Also they can move a lot of air.
But i never built a sealed or ported box sub for pa use.
I think (does not me i am right) that 4 or 6 of the IXL-18 in a ported box would make big bass. What is your your opinion of what i think.
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