As far as I know, the most powerful gut wrenching sub is the Martin Audio S215 MKIII which was made in the 70s:
Martin 215 mk 2 - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 20
Some guys are telling me that nowadays with modern technology there should be more efficient and smaller cabs which will produce the same or better results, the S215 carries two 15" subwoofers, anyone know of anything out there which can rival the S215 whether 15" or 18" sub?
Martin 215 mk 2 - Speakerplans.com Forums - Page 20
Some guys are telling me that nowadays with modern technology there should be more efficient and smaller cabs which will produce the same or better results, the S215 carries two 15" subwoofers, anyone know of anything out there which can rival the S215 whether 15" or 18" sub?
40Hz isn't really a "Sub" in my book except in PA terms. I think the mouth of these is too small to have much "throw" below 100Hz anyway unless you make an array. Model them in Hornresp and compare with more modern designs.
OT but is that DBH 218 new? or i just never noticed it on Danley's site?
Quote from Ian....
"The biggest difference-sonically- is that the DBH-218 has more "impact/punch etc" than a pair of TH118's. Assuming you are talking about the DBH218 and not the DBH218LC. The LC version walks all over a pair and probably 4 TH118s down low (say below 30Hz)."
hmmm sounds interesting....wonder what he has going on underneath that mesh grill! (to walk all over 4 TH 118's!!!)
Quote from Ian....
"The biggest difference-sonically- is that the DBH-218 has more "impact/punch etc" than a pair of TH118's. Assuming you are talking about the DBH218 and not the DBH218LC. The LC version walks all over a pair and probably 4 TH118s down low (say below 30Hz)."
hmmm sounds interesting....wonder what he has going on underneath that mesh grill! (to walk all over 4 TH 118's!!!)
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Efficient, small and low do not go together.
That stuff is not even close to the output of the Matterhorn, is a 40-driver, 40 kW self-powered Tom Danley designed tapped horn subwoofer which can produce 105 dB of output at 250 meters, with a response -3 dB at 12 Hz.
Matterhorn
Now that is a "gut wrenching sub".
As far as commercially available subs, DSL's DBH-218 has lots of punch, but not super deep extension.
Their TH-221 has loads of output and deep extension.
McCaully's 421 which uses four B&C 21" cones in a large isobaric tapped horn (they call it by another name, of course) does not go as low as the TH-221 (the 421 does not meet the published FR specs) but above 30 Hz is a real monster.
Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
I’m not particularly fond of the term “tapped horn” either, but so many people use those terms it does not make sense to nitpick semantics too much.
Here is a good reveiw of the M421:
McCauley M421 Quad 21" Subwoofer
As Bennett writes “The drivers are arranged isobarically, and then coupled to an "FEA optimized acoustic transformer" or a horn to you and me.”
Anyone looking at the pictures Bennett posted who is familiar with tapped horns can recognize that the M421 is a tapped horn using an isobaric drive.
From the sound quality descriptions, the isobaric arrangement seems to have lowered the punch factor, but the M421 at around 155 dB output at one meter has no shortage of grunt.
Can’t think of anything else that has any more bass output per cubic foot in half space.
Art Welter
The M421 is isobaricly loaded, though the term “isobaric” is a misnomer which I simply have repeated.
I’m not particularly fond of the term “tapped horn” either, but so many people use those terms it does not make sense to nitpick semantics too much.
Here is a good reveiw of the M421:
McCauley M421 Quad 21" Subwoofer
As Bennett writes “The drivers are arranged isobarically, and then coupled to an "FEA optimized acoustic transformer" or a horn to you and me.”
Anyone looking at the pictures Bennett posted who is familiar with tapped horns can recognize that the M421 is a tapped horn using an isobaric drive.
From the sound quality descriptions, the isobaric arrangement seems to have lowered the punch factor, but the M421 at around 155 dB output at one meter has no shortage of grunt.
Can’t think of anything else that has any more bass output per cubic foot in half space.
Art Welter
Attachments
The picture on the left shows the mouth with the left outer speaker removed, showing the inner driver which loads directly in to the TH throat.
The throat is not visible, though you can see a "V" wedge in the center of the horn at the back of the cabinet that leads towards the throat.
The magnet of the inner driver is clearly visible, indicating there is no push pull arrangement. The outer speaker is coupled to the inner through the small "isobaric" chamber.
The picture on the right shows the cabinet placed vertically, with all speakers in place, only two are visible in the mouth.
If the speakers were loaded PP, the isobaric chamber could have been made much smaller, and both driver's magnet vents would have been open to outside air, though the inner driver would have vented through a long horn. The choice to load the way they did is an interesting one, probably requred to get the desired throat compression ratio without a too complicated build.
Although Bennett was not particularly impressed with the sound quality, it certainly seems to be a design that can put out lots of output, and the cabinets had been through a lot of test drives, the heat build up in the isobaric chamber does not seem to have affected the B&C drivers.
Art
No, but in 3.4 cu ft you can have an F3 of 33hz/F10 of 15hz with 2000 watts power handling.
Interesting design I have to say it looks like an isobaric to me too. Due to seeing the exposed inner driver, inside the hole cutout where the other driver would be mounted, & is on the other side.
Mounting drivers isobaricly equates to only needing half the volume normally required for the same f3 etc, which explains some of it's advantages. Doing that though decreases the SPL by - 3dB, but is made up for, & more, by the particular horn loading method. Plus they are using 2000W drivers, B&C by the looks of them
Even though they are not 20Hz - 3dB as advertised they are still a beast. What they actually sound like ?
I have to say it looks like an isobaric to me too. Due to seeing the exposed inner driver, inside the hole cutout where the other driver would be mounted, & is on the other side.Mounting drivers isobaricly equates to only needing half the volume normally required for the same f3 etc, which explains some of it's advantages. Doing that though decreases the SPL by - 3dB, but is made up for, & more, by the particular horn loading method. Plus they are using 2000W drivers, B&C by the looks of them
Even though they are not 20Hz - 3dB as advertised
they are still a beast. What they actually sound like ?
I have not heard them, Bennett Prescott's review was linked in #10.Interesting design
Mounting drivers isobaricly equates to only needing half the volume normally required for the same f3 etc, which explains some of it's advantages. Doing that though decreases the SPL by - 3dB, but is made up for, & more, by the particular horn loading method. Plus they are using 2000W drivers, B&C by the looks of them
Even though they are not 20Hz - 3dB as advertised
Dave Rat, Red Hot Chili Peppers engineer, Rat sound owner says they are "game changing loud".
Dave and I competed for and worked with many of the same loud bands in the 1980s and 1990s, if he says it is loud in 2011, its effing loud.
But, back to the OP, though the M421 are super loud, FLH still have the best transient impact, the Martin designs pack a wallop.
Tapped horns do allow for quite a wallop in a smaller package, and don't requre multiples to go low, but are not quite as punchy (technical term for accurate transient response) as a FLH.
I'd expect the isobaric M421 to be less punchy than a normal TH due to the large air spring between the drivers.
Art Welter
I was just thinking of a good way to explain what I see when I realized that the fold is the same as Arts Keystone sub but with two drivers in it. Do you guys understand what I am talking about now? The inner driver is another tap in the horn path and that's why you get the boost and then the big cancellation.
NEO Dan,
Your scenario would not be isobaric, and McCaully specifically says the design is isobaric.
My buddy Bennett knows what isobaric is, the manufacturer he reps also use an isobaric arrangement sub, also using B&C drivers.
He observed the M421 was isobaric when checking polarity and condition of the interior speakers.
You did notice how he noticed the M421 was not anywhere near the published specs, right?
Bennett would have also called BS if the cabinet was not isobaric, he pulls no punches.
You can believe what you want about the cabinet design, I'll choose to rely on the manufacture's description and first hand observations.
Art
Attachments
The reason why I am looking into this guys is that I haven't heard many different modern designs so I am clueless in that arear, I can swear by the Martins because standing 25-50' in front of them you could feel the pounding in your gut and no other speaker in my experience have ever done it like that and remember those martins are not for "deep" bass which brings me to my application.
I need a cab with a similar type of bass for my yard, I have a Sonic MR218 Bass reflex for the short throw deep bass, I am seeking a long throw cabinet for the punch bass like the Martin, keeping in mind that I need only one cab, which cabs out there do you guys think I can look into which will give me the type of bass I am seeking please? I need something affordable or if I can build myself then even better.
BTW, I have tried placing folded horn cabs like Cerwin Vega L36 sideways and also tried W-Bins but no where near the same effect as the martin, way I see it, only 15" subs can give that effect I am seeking so 18" would be a stretch?
I need a cab with a similar type of bass for my yard, I have a Sonic MR218 Bass reflex for the short throw deep bass, I am seeking a long throw cabinet for the punch bass like the Martin, keeping in mind that I need only one cab, which cabs out there do you guys think I can look into which will give me the type of bass I am seeking please? I need something affordable or if I can build myself then even better.
BTW, I have tried placing folded horn cabs like Cerwin Vega L36 sideways and also tried W-Bins but no where near the same effect as the martin, way I see it, only 15" subs can give that effect I am seeking so 18" would be a stretch?
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There is no real one cab solution like the Martin. The Martin has a mouth big enough to support it's LF extension/internal pathlength. If you want a sub that has a 30Hz extension the mouth you will need to support it is a cluster of 4 subs with something approaching a 4'x8' mouth. This is why no one single box solution is working well for you. The L36 is short on internal pathlength.
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