Given the same motor strength, a bigger heavier cone (like your semi/Corvette analogy) will sound “slower”, it does not “start or stop” as fast as a smaller cone with the same motor strength, so upper bass detail is blurred.
The trick to “tight” or “fast” bass (which as Josh Ricci pointed out is inherently slow by definition) is a motor that has enough strength to control a stiff cone, not the size of the cone.
And that super heavy motor is why the LMS 18 can outpunch the 15 or 12, but you have to pay dearly for that.
Most big bass purchasers won’t pay that price, and if the music they listen to consists of droning kick and synth bass lines, mud motors suffice just fine.
Good analogy. More HP, enough HP, can overcome the mass.
I can see it clearly that way.
Thanks.
Glad you could see the analogy.
One other detail, you mentioned in post # 35 “ I need 60 amps”.
Doug20 is correct that a 20 amp breaker can handle peaks well over 4000 Watts, but 20 amp breakers are usually wired with only 12 gauge wire, and 12 gauge will sag in voltage significantly with a long wire run with 4000 watt peaks.
If you plug a light in the circuit your amp is on and notice it dimming on peaks, your amp is not getting a full 120 volts, and will not actually put out it’s full peak power.
Larger wire, not bigger breakers are then required.
Switching power supplies have made amps way lighter for the power output, but that high power requires heavy cable to deliver the peaks.
My 7 pound Torpedo SP-4000 (4000 watts at 2 ohm) will brown out my 10 gauge shop service when run full tilt boogie into a 1.5-2 ohm load (four Lab 12s).
Sounds punchy till those lights dim, then the sound quality suffers, of course by then the shop walls are visibly flopping around and tools and scrap metal parts are buzzing at a dozen different harmonics..
Art Welter
Yeah, I'm definitely seeing the dimming. A bit late in the game. I will be upgrading houses and will fix all these things then for the new bigger deal.
Sorry I didnt post before I started this all.
Where are you located?
Aren't you just talking about Qts?Given the same motor strength, a bigger heavier cone (like your semi/Corvette analogy) will sound “slower”, it does not “start or stop” as fast as a smaller cone with the same motor strength, so upper bass detail is blurred.
The trick to “tight” or “fast” bass (which as Josh Ricci pointed out is inherently slow by definition) is a motor that has enough strength to control a stiff cone, not the size of the cone.
And that super heavy motor is why the LMS 18 can outpunch the 15 or 12, but you have to pay dearly for that.
Most big bass purchasers won’t pay that price, and if the music they listen to consists of droning kick and synth bass lines, mud motors suffice just fine
This is what I get. Output is from Basta!
vented box size: 160 liter
vent tuned: 20 Hz
Attachments
Originally Posted by weltersys
Given the same motor strength, a bigger heavier cone (like your semi/Corvette analogy) will sound “slower”, it does not “start or stop” as fast as a smaller cone with the same motor strength, so upper bass detail is blurred.
The trick to “tight” or “fast” bass (which as Josh Ricci pointed out is inherently slow by definition) is a motor that has enough strength to control a stiff cone, not the size of the cone.
And that super heavy motor is why the LMS 18 can outpunch the 15 or 12, but you have to pay dearly for that.
Most big bass purchasers won’t pay that price, and if the music they listen to consists of droning kick and synth bass lines, mud motors suffice just fine.
Given the same motor strength, a bigger heavier cone (like your semi/Corvette analogy) will sound “slower”, it does not “start or stop” as fast as a smaller cone with the same motor strength, so upper bass detail is blurred.
The trick to “tight” or “fast” bass (which as Josh Ricci pointed out is inherently slow by definition) is a motor that has enough strength to control a stiff cone, not the size of the cone.
And that super heavy motor is why the LMS 18 can outpunch the 15 or 12, but you have to pay dearly for that.
Most big bass purchasers won’t pay that price, and if the music they listen to consists of droning kick and synth bass lines, mud motors suffice just fine.
As it relates to transient response, yes.
I'm sure you have heard that.
I have been involved in such discussions.
Although much of perceived "punch", "speed", or whatever you'd like to call accurate transient response is above 100 Hz, accurate transient response below 100 Hz is also needed for accurate reproduction of music and special effects.
Located in Madrid, New Mexico.
Many older houses are wired with only 14 gauge wire, and the wire runs can be quite long going up and down studs to several outlets on the way to the one you are using in your listening room.
If you have an outlet located close to your main breaker (or fuse) box, running a 10 gauge extension cord from it to your to your amp could be a big help in reducing voltage drop, and increasing your subs punch factor.
Art Welter
Right right . Jet powered dragster semi anyone?
\And you for making mine. Budget is why YOU stop. For other people it may be size, weight or some other consideration. That was the point I was trying to make as well. You have a certain set of considerations that you need to look at for your particular situation but it may not hold for someone elses. That was all that I meant.
If you put the LMS in a 2.5 cu ft sealed box and give it 5000watts with a flexible EQ it is a tough system to outperform overall with another system of the same size. You are prepared to utilize quite a bit more space than that, so that value isn't there for you. BTW 2 of the 15's probably will outperform the single 18" in most aspects for less money. On a side note if you wanted 4 of the 12's I could ship you 4 for 1G. I'm selling my 4 LMSR-12's.
Josh,Right right . Jet powered dragster semi anyone?
And you for making mine. Budget is why YOU stop. For other people it may be size, weight or some other consideration.
On a side note if you wanted 4 of the 12's I could ship you 4 for 1G. I'm selling my 4 LMSR-12's.
Perhaps this guy will buy your 4 LMSR-12's for his ride, budget does not seem to constrain him
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Josh,
Perhaps this guy will buy your 4 LMSR-12's for his ride, budget does not seem to constrain him
My corvette would maul his 60' and the braking distance would be a laughable comparison.
Its 959rwhp and 1003rwtq....with a 75 shot and 822rwhp just on boost. Trucks actually make the point well because you cant get the 60' to match a lightweight car even if you could beat it on the big end for the 1/4. Now lets see the braking distance of that truck on the big end.
Mass in this situation wouldnt help your argument but nice try.
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Right right . Jet powered dragster semi anyone?
And you for making mine. Budget is why YOU stop. For other people it may be size, weight or some other consideration. That was the point I was trying to make as well. You have a certain set of considerations that you need to look at for your particular situation but it may not hold for someone elses. That was all that I meant.
If you put the LMS in a 2.5 cu ft sealed box and give it 5000watts with a flexible EQ it is a tough system to outperform overall with another system of the same size. You are prepared to utilize quite a bit more space than that, so that value isn't there for you. BTW 2 of the 15's probably will outperform the single 18" in most aspects for less money. On a side note if you wanted 4 of the 12's I could ship you 4 for 1G. I'm selling my 4 LMSR-12's.
You took the thread into a competely wider range of topics than my initial question. Talking about 20 12's and budget constraints had nothing to do with my simple question of what was I missing with the 18. All I asked was why someone would buy a single 18 (per sub) when two of those 15's (per sub) cost less and outperformed it. Now I have the answer; it isnt better.
I need one more of those 12's at the moment if its essentially perfect. PM me to talk about payment.
Jet powered trucks cant stop very fast. Thats the other 1/2 of the equation.
I think perhaps we're stretching the car analogy a bit on the semi truck. It would probably be more like comparing your Vette to the same Vette, but perhaps a convertible, being a little heavier. I'm sure you could bump your cam a little and dial up your boost and make that heavier Vette just as fast as yours.
Knowing a bit about cars, you know about horsepower to weight ratios, which is exactly the same phenomenon at play here. As long as the ratio of cone mass to motor strength is kept the same, or improved, I wouldn't expect the transient response of the driver to suffer.
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