My problem is sluggish bass in the 80-120hz region from my two 10" subwoofers. My small fronts struggle with produsing the level I want in this region so I would like to xo my subs in the 200 hz range.
I've got two of these running on a mono amp (with phase, highpass and lowpass filters);
99W10.17P - XTZ | Sound in balance
Since I mostly use them for music im wondering if I could swap out the 10" aluminium seas woofers with a midwoofer.. I had this i mind;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-679
I'm hoping this would give the sound a more defined and punchy midbass all the way up to 200hz. I dont care that the deep bass suffers since I can always get another sub
Part of my problem is that I don't know the volume of the enclosures so I can't use Winisd to model the new setup correctly..But I would guess that the volume is between 30 to 40 litres.. The port tuning can easily be changed to accomodate the new driver..
So I'm looking for an easy solution for my midbass problem
If anyone have any thoughts on better replacements, or why this shouldn't sound good, all comments would be greatly appreciated!
I've got two of these running on a mono amp (with phase, highpass and lowpass filters);
99W10.17P - XTZ | Sound in balance
Since I mostly use them for music im wondering if I could swap out the 10" aluminium seas woofers with a midwoofer.. I had this i mind;
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-679
I'm hoping this would give the sound a more defined and punchy midbass all the way up to 200hz. I dont care that the deep bass suffers since I can always get another sub
Part of my problem is that I don't know the volume of the enclosures so I can't use Winisd to model the new setup correctly..But I would guess that the volume is between 30 to 40 litres.. The port tuning can easily be changed to accomodate the new driver..
So I'm looking for an easy solution for my midbass problem
If anyone have any thoughts on better replacements, or why this shouldn't sound good, all comments would be greatly appreciated!
It doesn't change the "slowness" enough when I raise the crossover.. When raising the xo the muddiness becomes even worse up the midbass range The subs sounds slow even without music from the fronts.. So I dont think its an integration problem.. That said I think most subs are too slow for music above 60-70hz. I used a Morel ultimo sub in a closed box and thats a the only sub I've heard playing reasonably good 125hz.. But it didn't play very loud.
My midrange is a 6.5" with a 2.5way xo, and I might add a highpass filter in the 150-200hz range if the sub mods works out. My ultimate goal is to mimic the sound from a 3 way speaker and have plenty of bass from 80 to 200hz. Btw I think the large livingroom room is to blame for the lack of midbass..
The subs sounds slow even without music from the fronts.. So I dont think its an integration problem.. That said I think most subs are too slow for music above 60-70hz. I used a Morel ultimo sub in a closed box and thats a the only sub I've heard playing reasonably good 125hz.. But it didn't play very loud.My midrange is a 6.5" with a 2.5way xo, and I might add a highpass filter in the 150-200hz range if the sub mods works out. My ultimate goal is to mimic the sound from a 3 way speaker and have plenty of bass from 80 to 200hz. Btw I think the large livingroom room is to blame for the lack of midbass..
It doesn't change the "slowness" enough when I raise the crossover.. When raising the xo the muddiness becomes even worse up the midbass range
I find subwoofers are good for below 80Hz. I was never able to get any definition for mid-bass.
My approach nowadays is to use a normal woofer for mid-bass instead. I tune the box for 65-70Hz F3. Below that, the subwoofer takes over. This way, I can control the mid-bass.
Thats exactly what I was thinking Chua!
I have tried adjusting the phase on my amp but that doesn't affect the problem very much.. My sub system i designed to work with the fronts (all Xtz). Xtz use the same components in a floor stander, and here the sub is rolled off well below 100hz.. And I think the subs "slowness" is the only reason for that! I think the problem lies in the subwoofers themselves. Im thinking that when they've been replaced then tinitus suggestions becomes important. I have already tried all the mentioned suggestions but nothing helps.. Only gives more\less bass, doesn't affect the punch bass at all.
Does anyone have any suggestions on normal 10" woofers with xmax over 8mm?
I have tried adjusting the phase on my amp but that doesn't affect the problem very much.. My sub system i designed to work with the fronts (all Xtz). Xtz use the same components in a floor stander, and here the sub is rolled off well below 100hz.. And I think the subs "slowness" is the only reason for that! I think the problem lies in the subwoofers themselves. Im thinking that when they've been replaced then tinitus suggestions becomes important. I have already tried all the mentioned suggestions but nothing helps.. Only gives more\less bass, doesn't affect the punch bass at all.
Does anyone have any suggestions on normal 10" woofers with xmax over 8mm?
punch ?
then I would suggest active crossover between woofers and main speaker
basicly a 3way, instead of 2way with sub
maybe like 12db
somewhere between 150 to 350hz
depends on many other factors
don't know if the sub then will do any good at all
maybe, maybe not
Yes, it is. Subwoofers excel in the low frequencies, 40Hz and below. Try to use them for double duty work, they sound "flat; lifeless; slow" with mid-bass.
I'm seriously considering this SEAS CA26RE4X.
If you plan to cross at 500Hz or lower, this SEAS CA26RFX is more suitable.
My reason for choosing the CA26RE4X is I need the extension up to 1,500Hz to cross to my compression driver (10" 2-way).
Right now, I'm in the midst of building boxes for the 8" USHER 8137A (3-way) and a Peerless 830869 (2-way with compression driver). I plan to work on the 10" after these.
He is setting up this system mostly for music, i don't think there is such demand for running a subwoofer 40hz and down. Unless he is listening to mostly electronic stuff....
Where are the subs located in relation to your front speakers?
With that high a x-over, they should brobably be mounted right next to the front speakers, or maybe dead-center between them. Of course, that might not be the best position for low frequency response, but you should take that location as the starting point for your testing.
The subs and fronts(book shelves speakers) are modules placed on top of each other. (I have the same setup that is used in the pictures from Xtz, in the first post.) Doesn't give much room for moving them about I'm now convinced that the only solution is to change the elements to normal woofers
I'm now convinced that the only solution is to change the elements to normal woofersI think a lot of earlier posters are circling kind of similar issues: get the sub-bass out of the woofers. It is the music below, say 90 Hz, that requires a separate treatment (and going mixed bass below 140 Hz works just fine). You can make a purpose-built sub (or better, two) and put them in acoustically strategic places (using the heterogeneous principle) in your room.
With the low bass out of your woofers, the woofers are free to sound as nice as they can.
"Slowness" generally has little to do with the behaviour of your woofers, aside from plain old freq curves. Only deficiencies in the output of the upper-range speakers or excess of low bass leads to the perception of "slowness" (BTW, your ear can't always tell those apart).
Hard for anyone to guess what your system sounds like, but my guess is that you are pumping too much bass into those woofers (or making them voice too much bass by using boom-box suspension) and that makes them sound lumpy. Or maybe turgid. Or maybe kind of ooomphy.
Bi- or tri-amping is a good way to go too. Betcha few low-level cross-overs let the speakers perform much like the design says they should. Only a mic test says for sure.
Ben
With the low bass out of your woofers, the woofers are free to sound as nice as they can.
"Slowness" generally has little to do with the behaviour of your woofers, aside from plain old freq curves. Only deficiencies in the output of the upper-range speakers or excess of low bass leads to the perception of "slowness" (BTW, your ear can't always tell those apart).
Hard for anyone to guess what your system sounds like, but my guess is that you are pumping too much bass into those woofers (or making them voice too much bass by using boom-box suspension) and that makes them sound lumpy. Or maybe turgid. Or maybe kind of ooomphy.
Bi- or tri-amping is a good way to go too. Betcha few low-level cross-overs let the speakers perform much like the design says they should. Only a mic test says for sure.
Ben
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I've tried using the highpass filter (at 50hz?)on the mono amp and it helps a lot.. But the subs still sounds too slow for my taste.
I've also tried inline fmods highpass filters(120hz xo) on the tube amp that drives the fronts.. Huge improvement on the loudness and clearity at higher volumes But since the subs doesn't sound good over 80hz, this filter creates an even larger bass hole at the 80-120hz range.
I've also tried inline fmods highpass filters(120hz xo) on the tube amp that drives the fronts.. Huge improvement on the loudness and clearity at higher volumes
But since the subs doesn't sound good over 80hz, this filter creates an even larger bass hole at the 80-120hz range.
I agree , Dont use subs over 80/90 hz , just doesnt sound good, that is woofers territory
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I believe "slowness" is due to the nature of the subwoofer itself. Subwoofers are optimized for low frequencies (20-40Hz). That's the way they are designed.
I do agree with you on this. Subwoofers, when used for music, sound "slow" because we perceive this deficiency in mid-bass as "slow". The speed of the bass doesn't change. Our perception is influenced by the loudness, attack (transient), decay and definition in the mid-bass.
Dont change your subs , i dont believe that´s the solution , why dont you build a 3 way classic (with 1 or 2 woofers) and complement it with your subs ? I have that setup and i´m quite happy with bass , i listen mostly to classic rock and bass is that type of music has to have punch/atack , mainly 60-160hz.
3-Way Classic
Zaph|Audio - ZDT3.5
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