Greetings,
I recently purchased the Elliot Sound Products Linkwitz-Riley active X-over board. The X-over will go between the amp for my Vandersteen 3A's and an amp for a pair home-built subs.
I figure anything between 36hz and 200Hz will work. Any advice?
-Byron
I recently purchased the Elliot Sound Products Linkwitz-Riley active X-over board. The X-over will go between the amp for my Vandersteen 3A's and an amp for a pair home-built subs.
- Vandersteen advertises that the 3A's go down to 26hz at -3dB, with a "power assisted" passive radiator (probably 18dB/octave or steeper).
- The subs aren't finished yet, but they should be flat up to at least 200Hz.
I figure anything between 36hz and 200Hz will work. Any advice?
-Byron
most good speakers will play down to 80 or 60 hz,
so in my opinion a subwoofer doesnt need to play any higher then that.
and making a subwoofer play down to 16 hz so *dinosaur footsteps* are exciting is foolishness if at the same time that tuning makes bass guitars and drums 'sloppy'
35-15,000 hz is where its all at.
if i miss a few db of dinosaur footsteps once in a while, i dont care, i get all the accurate bass guitars and drums i want
can a subwoofer be designed and built to play from 10-80 hz well?
i dont believe thats possible with current technology..
so a subwoofer for music doesnt need to play any lower then 30hz (imo)
so in my opinion a subwoofer doesnt need to play any higher then that.
and making a subwoofer play down to 16 hz so *dinosaur footsteps* are exciting is foolishness if at the same time that tuning makes bass guitars and drums 'sloppy'
35-15,000 hz is where its all at.
if i miss a few db of dinosaur footsteps once in a while, i dont care, i get all the accurate bass guitars and drums i want
can a subwoofer be designed and built to play from 10-80 hz well?
i dont believe thats possible with current technology..
so a subwoofer for music doesnt need to play any lower then 30hz (imo)
Vandersteen Audio 3A loudspeaker Sidebar 3: Measurements page 2 | Stereophile.com
Hi,
For modest volumes it appears subs are simply not needed.
Roll-off is 4th order, 6dB down at 23Hz.
L/R crossovers are 6dB down at the common c/o point.
I can't recommend a c/o point, seems too inflexible to me.
Sensibly though I'd say around 50 to 60 Hz might be ballpark.
rgds, sreten.
Hi,
For modest volumes it appears subs are simply not needed.
Roll-off is 4th order, 6dB down at 23Hz.
L/R crossovers are 6dB down at the common c/o point.
I can't recommend a c/o point, seems too inflexible to me.
Sensibly though I'd say around 50 to 60 Hz might be ballpark.
rgds, sreten.
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yea id say you dont need a sub at all unless your room is very big.
your speaker already get down to 26hz !!!
http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/3alit2.html
DRIVERS
ACTIVE ACOUSTIC COUPLER
Long excursion, dual-spider 10" with die-cast basket and aluminum alloy cone
Heavy-duty 1 1/2" four-layer voice coil with ventilated aluminum former
60 oz. linear excursion magnet structure with focused field pole piece and copper rings
Range of operation: 26Hz - 35Hz1" critically damped metal alloy dome
WOOFER
Long excursion 8" with die-cast basket and curvilinear polycone
1 1/2" two-layer voice coil with ventilated aluminum former
40 oz. linear excursion magnet structure with focused field pole piece
Range of operation: 35Hz - 600Hz
your speaker already get down to 26hz !!!
http://www.vandersteen.com/pages/3alit2.html
DRIVERS
ACTIVE ACOUSTIC COUPLER
Long excursion, dual-spider 10" with die-cast basket and aluminum alloy cone
Heavy-duty 1 1/2" four-layer voice coil with ventilated aluminum former
60 oz. linear excursion magnet structure with focused field pole piece and copper rings
Range of operation: 26Hz - 35Hz1" critically damped metal alloy dome
WOOFER
Long excursion 8" with die-cast basket and curvilinear polycone
1 1/2" two-layer voice coil with ventilated aluminum former
40 oz. linear excursion magnet structure with focused field pole piece
Range of operation: 35Hz - 600Hz
Several of you have pointed out the superfluousness of a subwoofer with the Vandersteen 3A's. The problem is that I've run out of things to build. I figure building an active X-over, another amplifier, and a pair of subs will keep me entertained for a while. The justification for the subs is that I've read that relieving the main speakers of the burden of deep bass improves the mid bass. Richard Vandersteen recommends against using them for home theater without a subwoofer, as they're not designed for that - though I suspect he's just trying to sell his subwoofer. Also, the room is huge. My house has an open floor plan, which means no walls across the entire length of the house. So it's effectively a 3-walled room with a vaulted ceiling. And we watch a lot of movies!
The subs are almost finished, so it's too late to turn back now. It looks like I'll go with a really low X-over point of 60Hz or so.
Thanks all for the input!
The subs are almost finished, so it's too late to turn back now. It looks like I'll go with a really low X-over point of 60Hz or so.
Thanks all for the input!
Even with main speakers that can play down low, it seems like sometimes due to placement in the room, they can be a little lackluster. Subs can be moved around to tune room resonances or reinforcement from walls.
Placing main speakers to have a great stereo image is, at least to me, an idea that often is at odds with placing speakers so that they have the best sounding bass response.
Edit: Oh yes, knocking the mains off at 50 or 60hz will definitely clean them up and lower distortion. Remember the Velodyne DF 661? I think 80% of the secret to their claim of low distortion was a series cap
Placing main speakers to have a great stereo image is, at least to me, an idea that often is at odds with placing speakers so that they have the best sounding bass response.
Edit: Oh yes, knocking the mains off at 50 or 60hz will definitely clean them up and lower distortion. Remember the Velodyne DF 661? I think 80% of the secret to their claim of low distortion was a series cap
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I'd say - go on!
I added a pair of active subs to a system that was anything but bass shy. It is not about having more bass at all - good, low reaching subs bring a nice improvement of the size of soundstage and imaging. If you can, equalize and make them flat to 15 Hz or so.
My "Linkwitz transform" is a Behringer FBQ-2496 parametric equalizer. I figured out that it gives me more configuration options than an opamp filter.
The mains work full range, i.e. the subs are switched in parallel to main loudspeakers instead of having the crossover.
I added a pair of active subs to a system that was anything but bass shy. It is not about having more bass at all - good, low reaching subs bring a nice improvement of the size of soundstage and imaging. If you can, equalize and make them flat to 15 Hz or so.
My "Linkwitz transform" is a Behringer FBQ-2496 parametric equalizer. I figured out that it gives me more configuration options than an opamp filter.
The mains work full range, i.e. the subs are switched in parallel to main loudspeakers instead of having the crossover.
most good speakers will play down to 80 or 60 hz,
so in my opinion a subwoofer doesnt need to play any higher then that.
and making a subwoofer play down to 16 hz so *dinosaur footsteps* are exciting is foolishness if at the same time that tuning makes bass guitars and drums 'sloppy'
35-15,000 hz is where its all at.
if i miss a few db of dinosaur footsteps once in a while, i dont care, i get all the accurate bass guitars and drums i want
can a subwoofer be designed and built to play from 10-80 hz well?
i dont believe thats possible with current technology..
so a subwoofer for music doesnt need to play any lower then 30hz (imo)
Your assumption is incorrect. YES subwoofers can be designed to play very well from 10Hz or 15Hz to 80Hz. If someone wants to experience low, low bass in movies and still have clean bass for other content it can be done EASILY!! I have three different sub systems in my house that would simply prove your opinion wrong
btw,
Its fine for anyone to choose only 30Hz but there is content below 30Hz even in music. Just because that music is not your cup of tea does not make any subjective conclusion fact
My experience and opinion with the highest quality bass systems tells me 35Hz to 15KHz is not a high end system, its lacking several octaves
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You read that like it says there is bass...I read it and I think it will honestly suck for bass, hmmm a whole 1 1/2" voice coil....hold the presses!!
We live in different worlds of experience and one of us has seen distoriton measurements from main speakers that some people consider quality bass designs
Here are the facts, main speakers have issues with bass below 80Hz.
1. Always XO one octave above the F3 point of the design for the smoothest transition.
2. The placement of the speaker is seldom the best placement for bass response.
3. The box build, amp power, etc involved with the main speaker is not remotely good enough to a quality subwoofer build with its own box, own amplification, own DSP.
4. Multiple sub boxes is better then one box below 80Hz (even below 300Hz its important to correct room modes with multiple bass sources).
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if your crossover can send the signal to the speakers and the subs, and have a variable slope and x over point/s, you could experiment with many types of combinations to make it all sound/perform as good as possible in your room/space and at desired volume.
in my experience synergy is half the battle, you may find an xover point of 60hz works well, (or 40 or 30) but if you can stop your speakers at 120, or 150, and have the subs pick up at 100/130 (xover slope/s will fill in the gap) it may be more synergistic?
if your eq cant do that.
build one that can
if your crossover can send the signal to the speakers and the subs, and have a variable slope and x over point/s, you could experiment with many types of combinations to make it all sound/perform as good as possible in your room/space and at desired volume.
in my experience synergy is half the battle, you may find an xover point of 60hz works well, (or 40 or 30) but if you can stop your speakers at 120, or 150, and have the subs pick up at 100/130 (xover slope/s will fill in the gap) it may be more synergistic?
if your eq cant do that.
build one that can
No need to build them, The DCX has been doing it for years and years. Lately the MiniDSP has impressed everyone. Incredible little device, if you do not have one you should want one
btw, there isnt much of a thing call synergistics in audio unless someone lets subjectivity make their decisions. There are measurements that can be done that will pick the BEST XO point. The rest is just listener training.
Byron:
It's a pity that the XO doesn't have more flexibility.
I would suggest that if you could possible borrow an active xover that has a variable Fc and an inversion setting and ideally a delay - you could do some experimentation to find an appropriate setting
I initially set 80Hz or below as a starting point to minimize localization.
I current have mine @ approx 70Hz.
My subs are centered clustered summed mono; because of the distance from the mains - engaging the inversion switch made a noticeable improvement in bass integration.
Having flexibility in the active crossover allows fast experimentation.
It's a pity that the XO doesn't have more flexibility.
I would suggest that if you could possible borrow an active xover that has a variable Fc and an inversion setting and ideally a delay - you could do some experimentation to find an appropriate setting
I initially set 80Hz or below as a starting point to minimize localization.
I current have mine @ approx 70Hz.
My subs are centered clustered summed mono; because of the distance from the mains - engaging the inversion switch made a noticeable improvement in bass integration.
Having flexibility in the active crossover allows fast experimentation.
No need to build them, The DCX has been doing it for years and years. Lately the MiniDSP has impressed everyone. Incredible little device, if you do not have one you should want one
btw, there isnt much of a thing call synergistics in audio unless someone lets subjectivity make their decisions. There are measurements that can be done that will pick the BEST XO point. The rest is just listener training.
Behringer DCX2496 ULTRADRIVE PRO Loudspeaker DCX2496 B&H Photo
yea i know people who convert them to 12v and use them in cars.
for $99.
DSPower! The Behringer® DCX2496/DEQ2496 12V Conversion Kit Envision Electronics Design, LLC [DSPOWER] : EnvisionElec.net, Welcome to Envision Electronics!
I'd agree that digital technologies have blown past what we can practically do with analog for active crossovers, especially for time alignment. But you can do it very well either way. Adding high surface area and long throw subs will definitely reduce bass distortion, especially at high SPL.
If it were me, I'd be tempted to seal up the Vandersteen box (remove the PR and cover the hole with something solid), then check the bass alignment. The rolloff will be second order with some Q tbd. Use the crossover at second order highpass and 4th order lowpass to get a 4th order Linkwitz-Reilly response, then adjust the delay to compensate for differences in speaker-to-listener distance between subs and Vandersteen woofer.
edit: if the Q of the new sealed Vnadersteen is too low, you can raise it by reducing the volume of the enclosure (2x4s work well). Aim for a Qtc of 0.7, then an active Butterworth 2nd order high pass with fo at the same frequency as the speaker's fo will give you an acoustic Linkwitz-Reilly 4th.
If it were me, I'd be tempted to seal up the Vandersteen box (remove the PR and cover the hole with something solid), then check the bass alignment. The rolloff will be second order with some Q tbd. Use the crossover at second order highpass and 4th order lowpass to get a 4th order Linkwitz-Reilly response, then adjust the delay to compensate for differences in speaker-to-listener distance between subs and Vandersteen woofer.
edit: if the Q of the new sealed Vnadersteen is too low, you can raise it by reducing the volume of the enclosure (2x4s work well). Aim for a Qtc of 0.7, then an active Butterworth 2nd order high pass with fo at the same frequency as the speaker's fo will give you an acoustic Linkwitz-Reilly 4th.
Byron,
Anything between 36 Hz and 200 Hz will “work”, but will it sound better?
The Vandersteen 3A is a four way passive speaker using 1st order crossovers nominally at 35, 600, and 5000 Hz. The sales brochure calls the components used in the Model Three “Active Components”, though they are all conventional passive devices.
Of course, 1st order passive crossovers seldom result in acoustic 1st order crossovers, so the acoustic crossover between the 8” and the 10” could only be determined by measurement of each singly and together.
An active 24 dB per octave crossover will have different phase characteristics than the 6 dB per octave passive crossovers used in your main speakers. Your new subs will also have different phase characteristics from the Vandersteen 8" regardless of crossover type and frequency.
If you wish to preserve phase integrity, presumably what you purchased the speakers for, you would be best crossing your additional sub in around 35 Hz.
Since the passive crossover is only six dB per octave, the overlap between the “active acoustic coupler” (AKA sealed sub) and the 8” woofer is quite wide, so going as high as 50 Hz is probably not going to mess things up badly.
The higher the crossover, the more you will compromise the 8” woofers “fast and detailed transients”, unless you also actively cross the 8” at 24 dB per octave at the same acoustic crossover point as the new subs.
Unfortunately, acoustic crossover points are seldom the same as the electrical, overlap or underlapping the electrical crossover is as common to get it right as using the same frequency for both the top and bottom.
"Getting it right" when you have to change a bunch of components, rather than entering parameters in to a DSP , is difficult, even with extensive test gear.
The 3A sensitivity is 87 dB with 2.83 volts at one meter, with a four ohm minimum, so the one watt one meter sensitivity is about 84 dB.
With a sensitivity rating of only 84 dB, it will be easy to overpower the rest of the speaker with additional sub woofers.
Good luck, have fun!
Art Welter
Attachments
Hi ByronInLawrence,
If sound quality is the goal, then maybe the Geddes multisub approach would be more appropriate here? See:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/134568-multiple-small-subs-geddes-approach-138.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...ultisub-setup-temporary-rental-apartment.html
Regards,
If sound quality is the goal, then maybe the Geddes multisub approach would be more appropriate here? See:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/134568-multiple-small-subs-geddes-approach-138.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...ultisub-setup-temporary-rental-apartment.html
Regards,
Byron's Vandersteen's already have subwoofers (called active acoustic couplers, even though they are passive
)in them.See post #17.
Adding two more will give him four subs, that certainly qualifies for "multisub".
He can definitely run the Vandersteens their full bandwidth and add multiple subs to improve the in room bass performance, he should make sure he has a quality AVR or pre/pro with proper bass management options instead of playing around with linkwitz products.
Mr. Welter, Im not sure I understand your point about setting and XO on the Venersteens. We set XOs on main speakers all the time to remove their inadequate bass performance. AVRs or Pre/pros with quality bass management processors can do this with ease.
How does a normal High pass filter on the main speaker cause the main speaker to have issues at all?? Im not buying it.
Mr. Welter, Im not sure I understand your point about setting and XO on the Venersteens. We set XOs on main speakers all the time to remove their inadequate bass performance. AVRs or Pre/pros with quality bass management processors can do this with ease.
How does a normal High pass filter on the main speaker cause the main speaker to have issues at all?? Im not buying it.
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