Thanks Brian for the heads up. lets try this a different way. Some friends and I started throwing psytrance parties in Canada about 20 years ago. We host a festival 500-700 people 10 years running now. I invested in a RCF system about 14 years ago, 6 - RCF 4pro4001 3 way tops and 8 - RCF 8001-as subs. System still sounds great, nice punchy deep sounds but music has evolved a bunch since I purchased it, falls flat sharply at 40hz. Today our festival books a bit of everything, psy, techno, house, all forms of bass music, dub and reggae. My subs just don't cut it anymore and they are up for sale. I am looking for a design that will still have fast and accurate defined mid bass for psytrance, but would be able to be respectably go low and cover most frequencies in modern bass music. Dance floor sizes up to 300 or so max
I am leaning towards the xoc1 design as I think its a nice compromise of reasonable size, respectable balance between low frequency and mid bass performance. I plan to use the B&C 18sw115 drivers (unless there is a better option) and plan to build at least 4 cabinets. I have a cnc guy to cut the parts. Keeping the size reasonable is preferable, but it if it needs to be larger I can live with that as we have a trailer to transport them.
The options as I see them.
1. build the Xoc1 mark 1 with Djim's 3 board correction.
2. Try to approximate the mark2 build using these images as references.
https://i.imgur.com/gfkchBx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fdZZzZp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fqavGzf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iX1THBp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gfkchBx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pLev22R.png
I don't know how to use hornresp. I have started to fiddle with it but most likely if someone was able to let me know which one of the above images would be a good place to start I would probably try to print it out and draft the modifications by hand. People who did build Mark 2's in the thread mentioned a dip being created around 100hz so maybe trying to approximate the mark2 is not my best bet? I am hoping someone can give me advice here. Perhaps I need to spend the time to learn hornresp so that I can get it perfect?
3. There is also the larger version of the xoc1 drafted up by Epa on post 773 in the C/E/X PA Flat to 30 thread which was build by Crescendo. It has a substantially lower freq response down to perhaps 33 hz before gently falling off, measurements start at post 995. Now this box is a chunk bigger and it has impressive low performance, but from what I gather it may be down on output in comparison to the mark1, and there is a pretty big dip between 50 to 70hz.
4. I have also considered the keystone. Art has been kind enough to explain the pros and cons and I feel it may not quite be the right fit. However I am very intrigued by the modified keystone that tb46 worked on called TH18SC. Scientific built it and in post 491 of the $325 lab 12 thread he noted it sounded very similar to the TH18, but was able to reproduce some distinct lower notes. tb46 posted detailed plans for the TH18sc in posts 455, 456 and 457 and called it the mod4 in the $325 lab 12 thread. Hornresp sim for the design on post 451. It seems to show a flat to 35hz response, with strong performance in the upper bass frequencies as show in this sim. This freq response looks very promising, perhaps the best out of all of them? I am admittedly not super versed in interpreting these graphs so if anyone could give me an opinion that would be very helpful
https://i.imgur.com/EPverHJ.jpg
5. There is also the POC3 or POC4 versions created by Brian Steele. Perhaps you could comment on this Brian? its seems you are very well versed in using the software and understanding the sims. They look well sorted out and the frequency response sims looked good.
6. The Othorn. Looks awesome on many levels, not sure if it will have the upper mid bass required for good reproduction of the faster psytrance basslines.
7. Perhaps something outside of this list that I havent come across yet?
Would really appreciate any help you guys can offer helping me to decide which route to go. As mentioned I am hoping to have a sub that goes appropriately low for modern bass music, yet still be fast, punchy and accurate enough to play psytrance on.
Cheers from Canada
I am leaning towards the xoc1 design as I think its a nice compromise of reasonable size, respectable balance between low frequency and mid bass performance. I plan to use the B&C 18sw115 drivers (unless there is a better option) and plan to build at least 4 cabinets. I have a cnc guy to cut the parts. Keeping the size reasonable is preferable, but it if it needs to be larger I can live with that as we have a trailer to transport them.
The options as I see them.
1. build the Xoc1 mark 1 with Djim's 3 board correction.
2. Try to approximate the mark2 build using these images as references.
https://i.imgur.com/gfkchBx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fdZZzZp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fqavGzf.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iX1THBp.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gfkchBx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pLev22R.png
I don't know how to use hornresp. I have started to fiddle with it but most likely if someone was able to let me know which one of the above images would be a good place to start I would probably try to print it out and draft the modifications by hand. People who did build Mark 2's in the thread mentioned a dip being created around 100hz so maybe trying to approximate the mark2 is not my best bet? I am hoping someone can give me advice here. Perhaps I need to spend the time to learn hornresp so that I can get it perfect?
3. There is also the larger version of the xoc1 drafted up by Epa on post 773 in the C/E/X PA Flat to 30 thread which was build by Crescendo. It has a substantially lower freq response down to perhaps 33 hz before gently falling off, measurements start at post 995. Now this box is a chunk bigger and it has impressive low performance, but from what I gather it may be down on output in comparison to the mark1, and there is a pretty big dip between 50 to 70hz.
4. I have also considered the keystone. Art has been kind enough to explain the pros and cons and I feel it may not quite be the right fit. However I am very intrigued by the modified keystone that tb46 worked on called TH18SC. Scientific built it and in post 491 of the $325 lab 12 thread he noted it sounded very similar to the TH18, but was able to reproduce some distinct lower notes. tb46 posted detailed plans for the TH18sc in posts 455, 456 and 457 and called it the mod4 in the $325 lab 12 thread. Hornresp sim for the design on post 451. It seems to show a flat to 35hz response, with strong performance in the upper bass frequencies as show in this sim. This freq response looks very promising, perhaps the best out of all of them? I am admittedly not super versed in interpreting these graphs so if anyone could give me an opinion that would be very helpful
https://i.imgur.com/EPverHJ.jpg
5. There is also the POC3 or POC4 versions created by Brian Steele. Perhaps you could comment on this Brian? its seems you are very well versed in using the software and understanding the sims. They look well sorted out and the frequency response sims looked good.
6. The Othorn. Looks awesome on many levels, not sure if it will have the upper mid bass required for good reproduction of the faster psytrance basslines.
7. Perhaps something outside of this list that I havent come across yet?
Would really appreciate any help you guys can offer helping me to decide which route to go. As mentioned I am hoping to have a sub that goes appropriately low for modern bass music, yet still be fast, punchy and accurate enough to play psytrance on.
Cheers from Canada
I have been thinking about the same. Need to make medium size sound system for (mostly)psytrance etc. electronic music parties.
However, it looks like standard reflex would be the best compromise when it comes to one-way bass. It's pretty difficult if not almost impossible to make powerful, high efficiency subwoofer(s) which would be both punchy/kicky and still produce enough SPL down to let's say 30Hz. We are talking about clean frequency response from 30Hz up to around 150Hz.
So I'm towards two-way bass. Subs from 30Hz to 70Hz or so, mid bass from 70Hz to 200Hz. Horn loaded.
Currently I have two HOG scoops, which I really do like a lot! Lots of SPL from 35Hz and up, goes down to 30Hz if two or more stacked with some authority. SQ is pretty much another thing I like with hogs, they just have proper SUB punch and something. You can feel the low bass at long distances @ outdoors from just two hogs! I have also heard stack of 6 hogs and it was totally insane, that was something really. Bad thing is that they lack mid bass too, too slow from 80Hz and up (some phase cancellation beetween cone and horn).
TH-18 has somehow similar basic design, so I think they will require mid/kick-bass section too (or tops having enough punch down to 80Hz).
Maybe I'll give it a try to make some comparsion and measurements etc..
For my taste, psytrance needs just lots of punch/kick. No need to go low (under 40Hz). Even 50Hz and up is just fine.
However, it looks like standard reflex would be the best compromise when it comes to one-way bass. It's pretty difficult if not almost impossible to make powerful, high efficiency subwoofer(s) which would be both punchy/kicky and still produce enough SPL down to let's say 30Hz. We are talking about clean frequency response from 30Hz up to around 150Hz.
So I'm towards two-way bass. Subs from 30Hz to 70Hz or so, mid bass from 70Hz to 200Hz. Horn loaded.
Currently I have two HOG scoops, which I really do like a lot! Lots of SPL from 35Hz and up, goes down to 30Hz if two or more stacked with some authority. SQ is pretty much another thing I like with hogs, they just have proper SUB punch and something. You can feel the low bass at long distances @ outdoors from just two hogs! I have also heard stack of 6 hogs and it was totally insane, that was something really. Bad thing is that they lack mid bass too, too slow from 80Hz and up (some phase cancellation beetween cone and horn).
TH-18 has somehow similar basic design, so I think they will require mid/kick-bass section too (or tops having enough punch down to 80Hz).
Maybe I'll give it a try to make some comparsion and measurements etc..
For my taste, psytrance needs just lots of punch/kick. No need to go low (under 40Hz). Even 50Hz and up is just fine.
Hi Jay Michael,
I’m building some of the tb46 cabs (actually TH21SC, as I’m using 21” drivers). I’ve only nearly completed one thus far, so - this one to finish final details and three more to build. I might do measurements on this first one before building the remaining three. I might also begin a new topic for the build thread and measurements.
Cheers,
Justin
Tonskulus, thanks for your input I agree with you for the most part. I am running these tops, typically 2 or 3 per side depending on width of dance floor.
They have a reasonably powerful kick and sound really nice from 80 hz up. They are on the edge of being not powerful enough for outdoors though so I do plan to change these out soon, Ill keep them for indoor gigs and smaller shows. After subwoofers are replaced Ill likely do the same, a kick/mid cabinet under something for the high frequencies... or a mid high top that has the kick authority to keep up with the subs... still lots of research needed on those thoughts.
Justin, Thanks for chiming in. Yes please share some details when you have them, sounds like a really intriguing build!
They have a reasonably powerful kick and sound really nice from 80 hz up. They are on the edge of being not powerful enough for outdoors though so I do plan to change these out soon, Ill keep them for indoor gigs and smaller shows. After subwoofers are replaced Ill likely do the same, a kick/mid cabinet under something for the high frequencies... or a mid high top that has the kick authority to keep up with the subs... still lots of research needed on those thoughts.
Justin, Thanks for chiming in. Yes please share some details when you have them, sounds like a really intriguing build!
The POC3 uses a 12" driver and it's tuned to around 39 Hz. It definitely will not have the output that you need. The POC4 never made it into use (not that it did not perform as expected when initially tested, the owner simply got occupied with other matters and the build fell by the wayside, so it was never subject to any long-term testing).
The TH18C does look like a decent proposal. When I have some time, I think I'll put together an Excel workbook to describe its layout.
That's not surprising. All 1/4W resonators are likely to have issues just before 3@Fb (Fb=the 1/4W resonance frequency), though there are some techniques that can be used to deal with the first pipe resonance at 3*Fb, like offsetting the driver. If that first pipe resonance isn't dealt with, you end up with a huge dip in output around that frequency.
THs appear to deal with that dip by placing the driver in the mouth of the horn, which results in a peak being generated at or near the same location the dip would otherwise appear. While the resulting response looks flatter, there is the issue of the effect on GD...
There is another option - go with an offset TL. This will be slightly bigger than a vented box and should go a bit lower and louder, and the first pipe resonance can be nulled out by the offset, extending the passband (when compared to other 1/4W alignments). My POC6 is such a design. It's a 1/4W resonator with a response that stretches from 48 Hz to over 200 Hz, with no GD issues in the passband.
Has anyone made any real world comparsion beetween th18 and hog? Just wondering how response (and general sound quality) and max spl compares. Hog scoop is proper sub horn indeed as it does down to 30Hz with good authority. But yes, it is a bit slowish sounding.. at least the drivers I'm using atm which are not the best choice for scoops, RCF LF18x400 having quite a big VAS / not too great BL product. Still they produce good amount of spl indeed.
VAS is the thing there which is a bit confusing when it comes to scoops/tapped horns.
I see TH18 has almost no compression chamber while hog scoop does.
How different VAS numbers compare there. Is large VAS drivers bad for th/scoop enclosures?
Even tho x400 is propably medicore driver for these kind of enclosures, they still amazes me everytime.
Two hogs in livingroom
YouTube
VAS is the thing there which is a bit confusing when it comes to scoops/tapped horns.
I see TH18 has almost no compression chamber while hog scoop does.
How different VAS numbers compare there. Is large VAS drivers bad for th/scoop enclosures?
Even tho x400 is propably medicore driver for these kind of enclosures, they still amazes me everytime.
Two hogs in livingroom
YouTube
Hi Jay
Did you have any luck nailing down the Mk II design?
I am interested in building a pair of the Xoc TH-18... hoping to track down the details of the most evolved & proven design, without guessing, if possible.
The design with the “Cone Correction” built in, similar to photos in post #1537 by “No Smoking” seem to be the way to go, also having slightly longer horn...
I don’t have the tools or skills needed to model the cabinet design and be sure the cabinet design is optimal. I can do 3D drawings for assembly and component/panel angles, as well as 2D CAD drawings for cut/panel layout...
I also plan to use the B&C 18SW115 but have not decided on 4 or 8 ohm, haven’t selected power amps yet.
I also really like the idea of CNC grooves for the panels as shown on post #1879 by “sal87”
Maybe we can put our heads together on this to get on the details in-hand... such as exact dimensions and baffle angles...
Your thoughts?
Howard
(also from Canada)
I just found this, I’ll have review it further:https://www.diysubwoofers.org/sheets/boxplan-ss.xlsm
No, you didn't.
There are "bread crumbs" in post #1003, 1010, 1537 etc.
But #2343 says why you probably won't find updated plans in this thread:
Attachments
Thanks for your reply!
Lots of reading on this very long post! I don’t think I have seen a post this long anywhere... I went thru it all, but likely missed a lot of details... I will review further.
I see a number of posts by Xoc... where he mentions that the design was original... then I see the cone correction was calculated and it seems only after the fact it was thought to be very similar to the DSL TH118... and that lead to the apprehension to post details for the Xoc TH18 mark II version.
My goal is max output from 35-85hz within a reasonable budget for live PA/bands... clubs and small out door events. From what I understand, I believe the Xoc design mark II, similar to as built by “wg_ski”, post #1286 would likely work better for me, due to higher compression and a slightly longer horn, with the change that includes the cone correction and baffle change. I am also thinking that removing some of the corner reflectors would be better, to increase cubic volume. I have zero experience at the horn design software and don’t want to mess up...
I have ideas for simpler bracing, will double the bottom panel, 18mm Baltic birch throughout, top rear/bottom front handle cutouts, cnc route on side panel as template, and will have a custom steel grill frame in the opening for stiffness.
Seems clear that the B&C 18sw115-4 is the way to go, especially because of its very big BL value (30Tm), strong cone, among other things.
I usually do a SketchUp drawing before I build anything... I can figuire out all the details for panel sizes, joining angles, cutting layout, later easy enough.... I was just hoping to get the panel layout by way of an accurate side view of the Xoc TH18 mark II. To make sure I get the horn right. I guess I’ll have to extrapolate from the various PDFs and photos using BigPrint ..... or is there a better approach to getting the best layout dimensions for the Mark II version?
Any suggestions welcome!
Suggest you may want to consider the Keystone sub, it's additional frontal area, taller cabinet, and simpler build make it a very useful sub for your intended usage.
PASC built both a Keystone Sub TH ("tapped horn") and a xoc1 18" TH and reported his findings in posts #114 & 115 of this thread:
Keystone Sub Using 18, 15, & 12 Inch Speakers
Art
I looked at the Keystone and the Othorn info as well. The smaller size of the Xoc TH18 attracted me and the TH18’s band pass and efficiency looked good for my purpose.
I am still considering a normal ported bass reflex and just buy twice as many drivers and more power amps.... still on the fence.
More storage and transportation space, twice as many drivers, amps, speaker cords, AC cords- and try to find twice as many AC circuits, and double the voltage drop which can eat up 3 to 6 dB of output..
Other than that, 6 of one, a dozen of the other ;^).
Funny last line!
Plus I don’t think a single or pair of normal sized Bass Reflex (BR) cabinets will go as low as any of these TH cabinet designs, which is what is attracting me to the TH-18. The biggest upside for a BR is that for the smallest gigs a single 18” BR with a couple 2-way tops will be enough, and also enough as an on stage drum sub. . . so I can down size smaller. However, not likely that beats the points you listed... still pondering...
Thanks...
Reflex will be the most compact option as ever because it is less efficient. Needs more amps and drivers but less truck space.
I do like the fact that a TH design can get away with a lower high pass filter than a comparable reflex design, even if the natural roll off is higher, this seems to give a more natural presentation to my ears.
The difference in volume between a pair of reflex cabinets and a pair of tapped horns used at comparable high power levels is amazing, a pair of reflex cabinets might require compression to try to get reasonable levels where a pair of tapped horns might only need light clip limiting giving higher average levels and much higher transients while still keeping cool.
It is frustrating that so many requests for an updated design are made but none have gone the final mile and posted their own updated version.
This thread is a spin off of the Flat to 30 thread where an amazing mount of development took place in a short time. No doubt that the amount of input I put in then, was due to being in-between jobs at the time, a situation that fortunately I have not been in since!
But that was over 8 years ago - Where are the new killer designs?
Since the thread started
Speaker technology and amplifiers have progressed.
Hornresp has become far more powerful a tool and we know better how to use it.
Design geometry has not progressed very far.
A few people have got to grips with unfolding horn geometry such as Brians amazing spreadsheets. I came up with a good explanation of how to calculate a speaker cone correction and I know it works through practical builds but have yet to see anyone else publicly implement it properly utilising the technique I posted. A request at the time for some cone dimensions to allow detailed analysis resulted in nothing...
The fabled th18 Mk2 design does not really exist, at least not on any of my computers, but I know that it would probably take me a couple of weeks to come up with something that was an improvement on what is already there. But it hangs heavy on my shoulders. We had no idea what the Danley TH118 was like when this design was posted and the published performance ratings for that loudspeaker probably convinced us we were nowhere close!
In the Danley design the V comes right down to the double thickness baffle but that would not suit the majority and would just result in broken drivers for some users. As already discussed I am not really in to creating a complete Danley clone.
All the information is there it just take time & effort to put the pieces together, and maybe a bit of innovative thought to come up with something new to add to the mix.
I do like the fact that a TH design can get away with a lower high pass filter than a comparable reflex design, even if the natural roll off is higher, this seems to give a more natural presentation to my ears.
The difference in volume between a pair of reflex cabinets and a pair of tapped horns used at comparable high power levels is amazing, a pair of reflex cabinets might require compression to try to get reasonable levels where a pair of tapped horns might only need light clip limiting giving higher average levels and much higher transients while still keeping cool.
It is frustrating that so many requests for an updated design are made but none have gone the final mile and posted their own updated version.
This thread is a spin off of the Flat to 30 thread where an amazing mount of development took place in a short time. No doubt that the amount of input I put in then, was due to being in-between jobs at the time, a situation that fortunately I have not been in since!
But that was over 8 years ago - Where are the new killer designs?
Since the thread started
Speaker technology and amplifiers have progressed.
Hornresp has become far more powerful a tool and we know better how to use it.
Design geometry has not progressed very far.
A few people have got to grips with unfolding horn geometry such as Brians amazing spreadsheets. I came up with a good explanation of how to calculate a speaker cone correction and I know it works through practical builds but have yet to see anyone else publicly implement it properly utilising the technique I posted. A request at the time for some cone dimensions to allow detailed analysis resulted in nothing...
The fabled th18 Mk2 design does not really exist, at least not on any of my computers, but I know that it would probably take me a couple of weeks to come up with something that was an improvement on what is already there. But it hangs heavy on my shoulders. We had no idea what the Danley TH118 was like when this design was posted and the published performance ratings for that loudspeaker probably convinced us we were nowhere close!
In the Danley design the V comes right down to the double thickness baffle but that would not suit the majority and would just result in broken drivers for some users. As already discussed I am not really in to creating a complete Danley clone.
All the information is there it just take time & effort to put the pieces together, and maybe a bit of innovative thought to come up with something new to add to the mix.