Correction It was not the XB700. It where two XB800 drivers, Settings where HP:35Hz 48BW LP:90hz 24BW. max power set at 66v. amps where not clipping, in fact it just blipping the first led on the amp, limter set on 70v but never came close to limiter.
We tested a set of two running Techno mixes. After 5 hours of use we started to smell the drivers. we set the power to 60v. After 5 and half hours we stopped the test, thus turning the music down to acceptable levels before shutdown. After unscrewing the drivers. We noticed both drivers had some issue with 'coil scraping' when pressing down the cone.
Next day we tested two 1500's. it run for 6 and half hours straight at xmax level (69v) same crossover settings, before we had enough of it. Unscrewed drivers checked physically and had not any issues, nor smell nor heating up when in use, temps where around 20-24c these days.
Real use:
After this we choose the 1500's for the rest of the TH build (8 in total) and running (2x4 stack) from 13:00 hours to 23:00 hours nonstop on two small festivals a week apart. Genre classic house early 90's and classic hardcore mid 90's / 2000 area. ATM still no issues so far. That's why I recommended this driver in the first place, of our use, not just after testing and sims.
I simmed the XB700 for the TH18 build, IMHO I think it is a to light driver 'power-wise' for the TH18, although if you want to use it, it is a better choice to the discontinued XB800. Which we reconed in the mean time and I am now going to use them in a DJ monitor system build.
However I have to agree with you on the XB700 driver, both 15 and 18" versions are great drivers for a multitude of enclosures FLH, TH, BP etc.
We tested a set of two running Techno mixes. After 5 hours of use we started to smell the drivers. we set the power to 60v. After 5 and half hours we stopped the test, thus turning the music down to acceptable levels before shutdown. After unscrewing the drivers. We noticed both drivers had some issue with 'coil scraping' when pressing down the cone.
Next day we tested two 1500's. it run for 6 and half hours straight at xmax level (69v) same crossover settings, before we had enough of it. Unscrewed drivers checked physically and had not any issues, nor smell nor heating up when in use, temps where around 20-24c these days.
Real use:
After this we choose the 1500's for the rest of the TH build (8 in total) and running (2x4 stack) from 13:00 hours to 23:00 hours nonstop on two small festivals a week apart. Genre classic house early 90's and classic hardcore mid 90's / 2000 area. ATM still no issues so far. That's why I recommended this driver in the first place, of our use, not just after testing and sims.
I simmed the XB700 for the TH18 build, IMHO I think it is a to light driver 'power-wise' for the TH18, although if you want to use it, it is a better choice to the discontinued XB800. Which we reconed in the mean time and I am now going to use them in a DJ monitor system build.
However I have to agree with you on the XB700 driver, both 15 and 18" versions are great drivers for a multitude of enclosures FLH, TH, BP etc.
Hi Sabbelbacke and USRFobiwan,
USRFobiwan, what you describe is a serious thermal problem and that makes the published specs questionable... or the motor is (very) unstable. It is a pity because the “trust” and Fme (force factors) looked promising.
Sabbelbacke, do you have Klippel measurements of an Obertone, by any chance?
Cheers,
Djim
USRFobiwan, what you describe is a serious thermal problem and that makes the published specs questionable... or the motor is (very) unstable. It is a pity because the “trust” and Fme (force factors) looked promising.
Sabbelbacke, do you have Klippel measurements of an Obertone, by any chance?
Cheers,
Djim
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DJim, it is just that we think the XB800 (or XB700) does not have enough power to 'activate' the TH18 design enough. In other words it does not generate enough power to let the TH18 work at the 'required' levels. And when it does it is running at its max already causing the driver to run out of steam in a few hours.
It means that the TH18 requires a real strong and high power driver. That is what we noticed during intensive testing.
It means that the TH18 requires a real strong and high power driver. That is what we noticed during intensive testing.
@USRFobiwan
Thanx for the info. 66 Volt can be enough to drive the xb800 into xmax in this cab, depending on what frequency is dominant in your source material. Given the style of electronic music, the 50 to 65 Hz region is exactly where the driver moves the most (besides below the tuning frequency). The suspension of modern speakers act like a mechanical fail safe in these regions, they hold back the cone from moving too much. So compression occurs -> heats up the coil without significant more SPL (ok, distortion rises, at least this sounds louder sometimes...)
One possible explanation to your findings could be: When driven near around xmax, the coil is heated up a lot. Since the XB800 has a longer coil than the XB700, cooling is more dependand on the coil moving (Convection). The gap is the same, the magnet the same size - so cooling by the magnet (conduction) is less on the overall surface of the coil, compared to the XB700. It would be interesting to see the burned coil - if its dark and burned at the ends, this would fit this assumption.
We experienced similar behaviour in some reflex-boxes, where powercompression of the XB800 "was eating up" the theoretical "xmax plus" of the XB800 vs. the XB700, so the advantage wasn´t too big when simply swapping the drivers.
If the coil heats up too much, the driver is beaten more than the XB700 ("its the bigger speaker, it can handle more according to the data sheet, so crank it up"..), it is blown.
If the XB800 is swapped with the XB1500, length of coil and gap are about the same on both, the bigger coil (4,5" to 4") can handle more heat - no problems any more. Simply because there is more surface of the coil and more surface of cooling by the magnet.
In our experience, the XB800 is more suitable, if build into slightly depper tuned Boxes, where there is more cone movement than in higher tuned, smaller ones. So swapping the XP700 with a XB800 in order to want more power most of the times didn´t work as expected. But building a slightly bigger box with lower tuning for the XB800 worked out well.
Of course, this is no failure or a "bad driver" it´s simply the wrong "wish" of outcome and the missunderstanding that simply swapping a "bigger driver" always works out well. Other drivers with similar motor geometry from other manufacturers have the same problems in this cab.
If one is after "raw power" from a TH118, he really should go for drivers having massive xmax and power capability (keep away from those with too small gaps and light magnets if you want to put more than 1kW in this cab). I am there with you. I only mentioned the XB700, because it sounds really good in the cab (if the level achivable is enough - some people put these in home cinema), it has a good cone for the money and isn´t too expensive overall.
The cones from the Oberton Speakers and the mechanical quality is fine in my opinion.
Oh, BTW, I´d use some slightly different high pass on the cabs. 48dB BW is very steep, you get a lot of group delay and phase change. Depending on which version of the cab you have, you even might keep the speaker from moving below the 45 Hz region, "steeling" some convection possibility, depending on the program you are listening to. A 24db at 30 Hz should work as failsafe, too. Best if you try a little, maybe open the cab, take a sine generator, do some sweeps and look at the cone (or measure, if you have the possiblity).
@DJM. No, sorry, I don´t have a klippel on this one. On the Oberton, my findings are purely empirical
The suspension and the movement geometry of the cone can´t be that bad, since I have seen only a hand full of these with cone offsetts, even after a few years "on the road", even in badly tuned reflex boxes... But of course, this is only a "backward assumption", a klippel measurement would show exactly what is going on... (BTW, there are some high power speakers out there which have a high reputation and are very durable which have terribel BL-Curves, supension non-linearities... Just saying, don´t want to bash.. )
Thanx for the info. 66 Volt can be enough to drive the xb800 into xmax in this cab, depending on what frequency is dominant in your source material. Given the style of electronic music, the 50 to 65 Hz region is exactly where the driver moves the most (besides below the tuning frequency). The suspension of modern speakers act like a mechanical fail safe in these regions, they hold back the cone from moving too much. So compression occurs -> heats up the coil without significant more SPL (ok, distortion rises, at least this sounds louder sometimes...)
One possible explanation to your findings could be: When driven near around xmax, the coil is heated up a lot. Since the XB800 has a longer coil than the XB700, cooling is more dependand on the coil moving (Convection). The gap is the same, the magnet the same size - so cooling by the magnet (conduction) is less on the overall surface of the coil, compared to the XB700. It would be interesting to see the burned coil - if its dark and burned at the ends, this would fit this assumption.
We experienced similar behaviour in some reflex-boxes, where powercompression of the XB800 "was eating up" the theoretical "xmax plus" of the XB800 vs. the XB700, so the advantage wasn´t too big when simply swapping the drivers.
If the coil heats up too much, the driver is beaten more than the XB700 ("its the bigger speaker, it can handle more according to the data sheet, so crank it up"..), it is blown.
If the XB800 is swapped with the XB1500, length of coil and gap are about the same on both, the bigger coil (4,5" to 4") can handle more heat - no problems any more. Simply because there is more surface of the coil and more surface of cooling by the magnet.
In our experience, the XB800 is more suitable, if build into slightly depper tuned Boxes, where there is more cone movement than in higher tuned, smaller ones. So swapping the XP700 with a XB800 in order to want more power most of the times didn´t work as expected. But building a slightly bigger box with lower tuning for the XB800 worked out well.
Of course, this is no failure or a "bad driver" it´s simply the wrong "wish" of outcome and the missunderstanding that simply swapping a "bigger driver" always works out well. Other drivers with similar motor geometry from other manufacturers have the same problems in this cab.
If one is after "raw power" from a TH118, he really should go for drivers having massive xmax and power capability (keep away from those with too small gaps and light magnets if you want to put more than 1kW in this cab). I am there with you. I only mentioned the XB700, because it sounds really good in the cab (if the level achivable is enough - some people put these in home cinema), it has a good cone for the money and isn´t too expensive overall.
The cones from the Oberton Speakers and the mechanical quality is fine in my opinion.
Oh, BTW, I´d use some slightly different high pass on the cabs. 48dB BW is very steep, you get a lot of group delay and phase change. Depending on which version of the cab you have, you even might keep the speaker from moving below the 45 Hz region, "steeling" some convection possibility, depending on the program you are listening to. A 24db at 30 Hz should work as failsafe, too. Best if you try a little, maybe open the cab, take a sine generator, do some sweeps and look at the cone (or measure, if you have the possiblity).
@DJM. No, sorry, I don´t have a klippel on this one. On the Oberton, my findings are purely empirical
The suspension and the movement geometry of the cone can´t be that bad, since I have seen only a hand full of these with cone offsetts, even after a few years "on the road", even in badly tuned reflex boxes... But of course, this is only a "backward assumption", a klippel measurement would show exactly what is going on... (BTW, there are some high power speakers out there which have a high reputation and are very durable which have terribel BL-Curves, supension non-linearities... Just saying, don´t want to bash.. )
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@DJim, I can do a DATS measure of drivers if you want. But I can tell you that the specs of the Obertons are 98% of the time spot on, based on previous DATS measurements of Oberton drivers.
I think I took some pictures of the coil when we reconed one of the xb800 drivers. I will look them up.
I think I took some pictures of the coil when we reconed one of the xb800 drivers. I will look them up.
Yes, the specs of the oberton speakers are as "true" as most other respectable speaker companies out there. The problem is more in the "system" since the specs are always "Small signal" related - but how a speaker behaves when driven hard is a totaly different story. Thanx to klippel analyzer (or other, similar) and extended TSP Models (e.g. LEAP..), we nowadays have more insight on how speakers behave at high power.
Hi all,
@USRFobiwan, thanks for the offer but it is not necessary to do a DATS measurement since both of you seem to have measured Oberton’s it in the past. Perhaps you already know but you can calculate the “motor strength” (force factors), Fme and “Trust”,
Fme = BL / √Re
“Trust”= F^2me = (BL*BL) / Re
18XB1600……………..........…18XB1500………….......…..…..18XB1300
Fme = 12.86 N/W…….....……Fme = 13.74 N/W…..…......…Fme = 12.41 N/M
“Trust” = 165.3 N^2/W ..….“Trust” = 188.0 N^2/W ..….”Trust” = 154.0 N^2/W
18XB800……………...........……18XB700
Fme = 12.43 N/W…….......….Fme = 11.48 N/W
Trust” = 154.5 N^2/W…......“Trust” = 131.8 N^2/W
@Sabbelbacke, no offence taken It’s just that users should be able to count on those specs, the 18XB800 is AES power rated for instance, and I wouldn’t qualify that as wishful thinking. I do agree about your HP recommendation in order to let the driver 'breath'. Many spend way too much time on over-excursion and way too less on their excursion minimums.
Cheers,
Djim
@USRFobiwan, thanks for the offer but it is not necessary to do a DATS measurement since both of you seem to have measured Oberton’s it in the past. Perhaps you already know but you can calculate the “motor strength” (force factors), Fme and “Trust”,
Fme = BL / √Re
“Trust”= F^2me = (BL*BL) / Re
18XB1600……………..........…18XB1500………….......…..…..18XB1300
Fme = 12.86 N/W…….....……Fme = 13.74 N/W…..…......…Fme = 12.41 N/M
“Trust” = 165.3 N^2/W ..….“Trust” = 188.0 N^2/W ..….”Trust” = 154.0 N^2/W
18XB800……………...........……18XB700
Fme = 12.43 N/W…….......….Fme = 11.48 N/W
Trust” = 154.5 N^2/W…......“Trust” = 131.8 N^2/W
@Sabbelbacke, no offence taken
It’s just that users should be able to count on those specs, the 18XB800 is AES power rated for instance, and I wouldn’t qualify that as wishful thinking. I do agree about your HP recommendation in order to let the driver 'breath'. Many spend way too much time on over-excursion and way too less on their excursion minimums. Cheers,
Djim
@Sabbelbacke, no offence taken
Of course, I am there with you.
Most of the times users don´t have in mind that a AES rating is derived from a test-situation which differs a lot from the situation the driver is working in the cab. It´s mostly a thermal related figure and changing exkursion behaviour because of acoustical loading in a horn or with a port recuires a new evaluation of the drivers capacity. Most manufacturers don´t bother, they just copy the specs in the data sheet of the driver. If - in the case of the XB1800 - the driver is mounted in cabs designed for a different model, the mistake gets very obvious.
Hi Sabbelbacke,
That motivation contradicts your own 18XB700 suggestion from earlier posts : -)
Actually, most drivers suggested (and tested) in this thread are ‘weaker’ compared to the PD driver, the Xoc1-TH18 was designed for...
Cheers,
Djim
What type of music? 8 ohm or 4 ohm models? What's your budget? Are you running professional business/club where the system will be banging many hours every week?
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pop / rock
8 ohm
around 600-900$
I use this system as hobby not running professional business but light weight power amp is prefer
Based on the fact that you're doing it for hobby I'd go with the the NU6000 as well. I'd also go for the DSP version for sure because it's very versatile, easy to use, and you can set voltage limiters. Throw it in a 2U Gator case (for example) and I don't think you'll have to worry about the amp being damaged either. The Behringer amps are a bit fragile but I don't think I've heard of many people breaking them if they're either in a rack or permanent install. While we're on the topic of iNukes, I also have to brag here that I recently got a NU6000 and a 2U gator case and a bunch of other equipment in a screaming deal on craigslist. I figured the NU6000 would look roughly similar to the NU3000 internally, but it's quite different. And weighs significantly more. I'm excited to take it out for the first time at an event.
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I think the 6000 is just two 3000 amps in permanent bridge put together in one case, and I guess the PSU is accordingly beefed up to fit the extra power consumed.
Now I'm using a very beefy iron amp for my keystones, but my cheap smps class D Peavey ipr 1600 I had a few years ago was one of the most intense experiences I've had when pushing my 12" FLH sub cabs.. I compared it to a much more powerful peavey pv3800 iron amp and it had a better vibe and to my ears sounded definately louder limited to the same voltage.
You will probably be very satisfied with the inuke
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I'll second the iNuke 6000 suggestion. My cousin runs two 18TBX100s in W-bins off of one iNuke 6000 DSP in his club and it works very well. OTOH, he is on his second 6000DSP, but they're so cheap that you can purchase a spare and keep it on hand if the main one fails.
Note that the two output channels for a 6000 DSP are not bridgeable. OTOH, you could use one channel to run the sub and the other to run the tops in mono.
If available, I'd suggest going for an NU4-6000. Its literally 2x NU3000 in one box, so you've got 4 channels. Bridging the two pairs gives you an NU6000, or you can bridge one pair for subs and the other 2 channels will bi-amp a mid/high cabinet, or run a passive cab and a monitor, etc etc. The flexibility there is nice to have.
FWIW, I had an NU6000 go down due to the power supply diode problem. Got it sorted, and all seems to be well now.
Chris
FWIW, I had an NU6000 go down due to the power supply diode problem. Got it sorted, and all seems to be well now.
Chris