Hello fellow DIYers.
I'm just another family man looking to maximize my families home movie experience. I'm a tinkerer and I enjoy R&D. But, for someone who has loved audio for 25 years, I sure do have a pathetic home theater! A dated, all-in-one Sony 5.1 shelf system with a cheap Polk 10" cube. Sigh. We finally got a large 1080p panel and blu-ray but something is still just...wrong.
Like many of us, I am stuck in a joined unit complex and must be considerate of neighbors sharing walls with me. I wouldn't want to listen to their noise and I don't expect them to tolerate mine.
So I'm going 'considerately' to try this. I already ordered some Tritrix MTMs with quad 5.25's in TL boxes. I havent got around to shopping low cost receivers yet since I haven't finalized the driver selection. So its time to cover the LOWS. My favorite
What exactly am I looking to do? I would *like* to build a sub enclosure that will cover most HT frequencies cleanly to my living room audiences - but disturb the neighbors as little as possible. I truly enjoy the 20-40hz range in my music & movies and would like to maintain decent in-room levels through out it if possible. Can horns and TLs provide good output with low vibration due to small driver and low power?..or does the enclosure amplification bring all the vibration along with it?
I am new to horn loading and transmission lines from an R&D point of view, but I'm guessing maybe something like a tang bang 8" in a long, tapped horn might come close? I've recently found BFM and am considering some of his designs also. I am still in the 'I know what I want and I'm researching how to get it' phase and I need to know how close to what I want would be a realistic goal for me.
Our living room is 13'4" square with vaulted ceilings rising sharply on one side of the room. My floor plan is widely adjustable and placement locations have little limit. We are about to paint and do carpet so now is the time!
I hope to drop jaws on movie night when this is all done. I'm researching steadily and want to learn. No hand outs needed here. I do humbly accept advice and teachings tho! Audio has always fascinated me and runs in my blood.
I'm hoping for good things.
Jason
13'4" square with cathedral ceilings vaulting up to the right of the screen.
I'm just another family man looking to maximize my families home movie experience. I'm a tinkerer and I enjoy R&D. But, for someone who has loved audio for 25 years, I sure do have a pathetic home theater! A dated, all-in-one Sony 5.1 shelf system with a cheap Polk 10" cube. Sigh. We finally got a large 1080p panel and blu-ray but something is still just...wrong.
Like many of us, I am stuck in a joined unit complex and must be considerate of neighbors sharing walls with me. I wouldn't want to listen to their noise and I don't expect them to tolerate mine.
So I'm going 'considerately' to try this. I already ordered some Tritrix MTMs with quad 5.25's in TL boxes. I havent got around to shopping low cost receivers yet since I haven't finalized the driver selection. So its time to cover the LOWS. My favorite
What exactly am I looking to do? I would *like* to build a sub enclosure that will cover most HT frequencies cleanly to my living room audiences - but disturb the neighbors as little as possible. I truly enjoy the 20-40hz range in my music & movies and would like to maintain decent in-room levels through out it if possible. Can horns and TLs provide good output with low vibration due to small driver and low power?..or does the enclosure amplification bring all the vibration along with it?
I am new to horn loading and transmission lines from an R&D point of view, but I'm guessing maybe something like a tang bang 8" in a long, tapped horn might come close? I've recently found BFM and am considering some of his designs also. I am still in the 'I know what I want and I'm researching how to get it' phase and I need to know how close to what I want would be a realistic goal for me.
Our living room is 13'4" square with vaulted ceilings rising sharply on one side of the room. My floor plan is widely adjustable and placement locations have little limit. We are about to paint and do carpet so now is the time!
I hope to drop jaws on movie night when this is all done. I'm researching steadily and want to learn. No hand outs needed here. I do humbly accept advice and teachings tho! Audio has always fascinated me and runs in my blood.
I'm hoping for good things.
Jason
13'4" square with cathedral ceilings vaulting up to the right of the screen.
Unfortunately, all the fun happens at frequencies that are prone to carrying through multiple structures even at low volume. LilMike's Exodus Anarchy tapped horn will get you to 25Hz and may be small enough to use Geddes' multiple sub format to fill the room better.
http://www.techfx.us/web/insubnia/Exodus Anarchy 25hz TH.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...-subs-geddes-approach.html?highlight=multiple
http://www.techfx.us/web/insubnia/Exodus Anarchy 25hz TH.pdf
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...-subs-geddes-approach.html?highlight=multiple
thanks for being a considerate neighbor
get a few of these attached to the couch and chairs,
Dayton TT25-16 PUCK Tactile Transducer Mini Bass Shaker
get a few of these attached to the couch and chairs,
Dayton TT25-16 PUCK Tactile Transducer Mini Bass Shaker
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I 2nd the motion for lilmike's anarchy 6.5 TH. It sounds like EXACTLY what you need.
Also, don't sell the latest generation HTIB's short -- I've been amazed of late exactly what they can do. I always thought they were goofy crossover, bad eq, etc... but come to find out -- it's just the speakers.
The TI digital amps are really quite flat, and the crossover points reasonable. I was amazed, the sub channel was flat down to 20hz, and then a 12db high pass from there. (I was measuring a $150 philips 3371d)
Here is a measurement of one of the little HTIB cubes. Can you guess what the 'marketing speak' is on the response of this speaker???
Also, don't sell the latest generation HTIB's short -- I've been amazed of late exactly what they can do. I always thought they were goofy crossover, bad eq, etc... but come to find out -- it's just the speakers.
The TI digital amps are really quite flat, and the crossover points reasonable. I was amazed, the sub channel was flat down to 20hz, and then a 12db high pass from there. (I was measuring a $150 philips 3371d)
Here is a measurement of one of the little HTIB cubes. Can you guess what the 'marketing speak' is on the response of this speaker???
Attachments
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I'm in an apartment, and so far, I think running large woofers (2 or 3 way flat down to 40hz) is a better option than a subwoofer. Right now I'm using a 2 way (8") with the woofer of a cerwin v12f with an 80hz f-mod. I know that the subwoofer will go right through the walls at low volumes.
I've been tempted for some bass shakers (clark synthesis platinum) but I don't want to build a platform for my couch, my wife will stub her toe or break it a couple of times a year.
You will not "drop jaws" unless you are at neighbor annoying volume. Look into the platinum bass shaker ($400). I have been tempted for years.
Product Review
Norman
I've been tempted for some bass shakers (clark synthesis platinum) but I don't want to build a platform for my couch, my wife will stub her toe or break it a couple of times a year.
You will not "drop jaws" unless you are at neighbor annoying volume. Look into the platinum bass shaker ($400). I have been tempted for years.
Product Review
Norman
in the review I linked to, they put the shaker under the cushion.
I tried the marked down $30 hockey puck shakers, bolted 4 of them to a couch. But I had the couch on cement (you need those rubber feet). The kids loved them, but I was not impressed, they seemed to not shake much below 70hz using test tones. They did add a bit of fun to video games (thump, thump) but they went back.
But yes, bolt it/them to the couch if you can. My furniture is new, so I can't. The only complaints about them are 1. they can seem a bit sluggish but that's fine for movies, and 2. ideally you have a platform, otherwise your mind goes "Hey why is my body shaking and not my feet also?". Thats just from what I've read, not my personal experience.
Norman
Norman
I tried the marked down $30 hockey puck shakers, bolted 4 of them to a couch. But I had the couch on cement (you need those rubber feet). The kids loved them, but I was not impressed, they seemed to not shake much below 70hz using test tones. They did add a bit of fun to video games (thump, thump) but they went back.
But yes, bolt it/them to the couch if you can. My furniture is new, so I can't. The only complaints about them are 1. they can seem a bit sluggish but that's fine for movies, and 2. ideally you have a platform, otherwise your mind goes "Hey why is my body shaking and not my feet also?". Thats just from what I've read, not my personal experience.
Norman
Norman
RiPols for the neighbours.
Hi RacinJason1971,
In addition to the bass shackers you might want to take some time, and research RiPol subwoofers. One of the claims of this design is, that it can set up a somewhat directional low frequency sound field for the listeners, while at the same time keeping the bass from spreading to the neighbours.
Regards,
Hi RacinJason1971,
In addition to the bass shackers you might want to take some time, and research RiPol subwoofers. One of the claims of this design is, that it can set up a somewhat directional low frequency sound field for the listeners, while at the same time keeping the bass from spreading to the neighbours.
Regards,
Thank you all for the fast responses. I may not get 'jaw dropping' responses at home but at least I got one here (in my book anyways).
In knew that what I wanted contradicted the actual effects in theory. I've had some form of subwoofer(s) in my vehicles and/or home for 25 years and most were designed and built by your truly. However i am very new to horns TLs or other 'complex' enclosure designs. Complex is my descriptor, hehe.
I wondered if the rules were a bit different for horns or TLs when i came to output per 'vibration'. In my mind maybe the amplification was mostly audible and the 'all' impact didnt have to follow. Apparently that is not the case but atleast now I don't have to wonder so thank you for those several explainations.
Re: bass shakers
To me, this is like substituting date night with a blow-up doll. No offense to those that enjoy them and I'm not really opposed to owning them. Afterall, my neighbors wouldn't appreciate the 'loud n sloppy' of date night, but I'd sure prefer the real thing - if only a little. Sub waves people. Thats the topic..
Joking aside, I've never felt a bass shaker but I'm guessing it simply shakes at the input frequency? Putting them on your couch is like sitting on a giant, cushioned PS3 remote with weighted motors in them I'm guessing. I would really prefer to hear from atleast 30hz up (lower is better) and then maybe use the bass shakers to emphasis the lows I can't quite reach. For now, I am choosing to focus on audio and not toys, at least until I'm left with absolutely no choice.
I'm quite interested to read about Lilmike's anarchy 6.5 TH, thanks for that rec' folks. I will be doing that right after posting this! I'll then look at the benefits of multiples as that is an option for me also.
I am SO glad I found you guys and registered before I went 'too big' like i always do. Before I posted this thread, I had forcefully convinced myself to step down to an 8". I'm accustomed to 10s and 12s and have ran them for over 20 years almost exclusively. I've designed and built sealed, vented, bandpass in 4th and 6th orders - including clamshells..but never a horn or TL.
This is going to be FUN! I'm off to study. Thanks to each of you for the input.
Jason
In knew that what I wanted contradicted the actual effects in theory. I've had some form of subwoofer(s) in my vehicles and/or home for 25 years and most were designed and built by your truly. However i am very new to horns TLs or other 'complex' enclosure designs. Complex is my descriptor, hehe.
I wondered if the rules were a bit different for horns or TLs when i came to output per 'vibration'. In my mind maybe the amplification was mostly audible and the 'all' impact didnt have to follow. Apparently that is not the case but atleast now I don't have to wonder so thank you for those several explainations.
Re: bass shakers
To me, this is like substituting date night with a blow-up doll. No offense to those that enjoy them and I'm not really opposed to owning them. Afterall, my neighbors wouldn't appreciate the 'loud n sloppy' of date night, but I'd sure prefer the real thing - if only a little.
Sub waves people. Thats the topic..Joking aside, I've never felt a bass shaker but I'm guessing it simply shakes at the input frequency? Putting them on your couch is like sitting on a giant, cushioned PS3 remote with weighted motors in them I'm guessing. I would really prefer to hear from atleast 30hz up (lower is better) and then maybe use the bass shakers to emphasis the lows I can't quite reach. For now, I am choosing to focus on audio and not toys, at least until I'm left with absolutely no choice.
I'm quite interested to read about Lilmike's anarchy 6.5 TH, thanks for that rec' folks. I will be doing that right after posting this! I'll then look at the benefits of multiples as that is an option for me also.
I am SO glad I found you guys and registered before I went 'too big' like i always do. Before I posted this thread, I had forcefully convinced myself to step down to an 8". I'm accustomed to 10s and 12s and have ran them for over 20 years almost exclusively. I've designed and built sealed, vented, bandpass in 4th and 6th orders - including clamshells..but never a horn or TL.
This is going to be FUN! I'm off to study. Thanks to each of you for the input.
Jason
Oops, forgot something and I cant edit or see my post being new here.
Jbell - I thought you meant infinite baffle but, after reading, it appears you meant home theater in a box? I had to read that a few times to realize you were saying.
I went from 'Oh, home theater infinite baffle..really?" to "Is he seriously recommending a 5.1 system in a BOX on a DIY forum??" to C'mon Jason - thats just idiocy..read again.. " Don't immediately consider my current receiver useless as you've noticed that the speakers (which I'm replacing obviously) can be the issue. It may still work for my needs!" Ah, ok, NOW i got it. Took a minute but I got it. lol.
My HTIB system is fairly old. 10 years'ish. It's a Sony RXD10AV - 5.1 (rca style) all in one. 240w rms advertised through 5 channels. Active sub was not included. I'm thinking it's time for an upgrade
Jbell - I thought you meant infinite baffle but, after reading, it appears you meant home theater in a box? I had to read that a few times to realize you were saying.
I went from 'Oh, home theater infinite baffle..really?" to "Is he seriously recommending a 5.1 system in a BOX on a DIY forum??" to C'mon Jason - thats just idiocy..read again.. " Don't immediately consider my current receiver useless as you've noticed that the speakers (which I'm replacing obviously) can be the issue. It may still work for my needs!" Ah, ok, NOW i got it. Took a minute but I got it. lol.
My HTIB system is fairly old. 10 years'ish. It's a Sony RXD10AV - 5.1 (rca style) all in one. 240w rms advertised through 5 channels. Active sub was not included. I'm thinking it's time for an upgrade
Oops, forgot something and I cant edit or see my post being new here.
Jbell - I thought you meant infinite baffle but, after reading, it appears you meant home theater in a box? I had to read that a few times to realize you were saying.
I went from 'Oh, home theater infinite baffle..really?" to "Is he seriously recommending a 5.1 system in a BOX on a DIY forum??" to C'mon Jason - thats just idiocy..read again.. " Don't immediately consider my current receiver useless as you've noticed that the speakers (which I'm replacing obviously) can be the issue. It may still work for my needs!" Ah, ok, NOW i got it. Took a minute but I got it. lol.
My HTIB system is fairly old. 10 years'ish. It's a Sony RXD10AV - 5.1 (rca style) all in one. 240w rms advertised through 5 channels. Active sub was not included. I'm thinking it's time for an upgrade
yep, many of the new htib systems have the sub amplifier IN the box, not in the sub. This means that you can replace the crappy sub with any 'good' passive sub.
Some really good 5. speakers, plus a pair of lilmike's insubnia's.
DIYCable.com : Intro » Home » Exodus Subwoofers »
Reed Exodus Anarchy 25hz Tapped Horn - AVS Forum
will make a HTIB shine. You get a solid 150watts per channel into 4 ohms, which is more than you need in your environment.
I personally like the philips HTIB with the usb ports. I have a couple terabytes of movies in divx, that just plug into the usb port...
anyway -- it's a cheap way to pretty decent audio.
Interesting. I'll have to look at the distortion, etc on my old sony then. I planned on replacing it due to the 5.1 out being RCA but i'll have a look.
I'd just like to say thank for both the 6.5" TH and the weird clamshell i think it was. I looked at them briefly before leaving for work and will be reading everything later tonight. Very cool designs!
I'll be back regularly
I'd just like to say thank for both the 6.5" TH and the weird clamshell i think it was. I looked at them briefly before leaving for work and will be reading everything later tonight. Very cool designs!
I'll be back regularly
So yesterday was a busy one. Today I hope to have time to study the two designs. I'm particularly interested in the clam-shell looking enclosure..mainly because I don't understand it entirely yet. NEW is good!
Oh, and a 6.5" going to 25hz is almost unreal in my experience. I'm excited to learn about these loading enclosures!
I'll check back
Oh, and a 6.5" going to 25hz is almost unreal in my experience. I'm excited to learn about these loading enclosures!
I'll check back
Tb46 - I just took a 5 minute look at the ripol design and it's unlike anything I've seen really. Particularly for the volumes. It appears all the tasty info is in german so I cannot read it but I'd at least like to know the response plot and sensitivity. Any specs or other links? It certainly doesn't look like it would do a whole lot (to me).
Onto the anarchy 6.5" - the 6.5" driver is a little beast! The horn on the enclosure looks fairly long for such a small design too. I can't imagine experiencing an honest, clean 25hz at audible levels from such a small woofer. I'm quite intrigued by this one so far
I was kind of thinking of a long, single fold tapped horned for behind the long couch also. Seems like a good amount of unused space to tap. There are SO many ways to do this. Fun stuff.
Jason
Onto the anarchy 6.5" - the 6.5" driver is a little beast! The horn on the enclosure looks fairly long for such a small design too. I can't imagine experiencing an honest, clean 25hz at audible levels from such a small woofer. I'm quite intrigued by this one so far
I was kind of thinking of a long, single fold tapped horned for behind the long couch also. Seems like a good amount of unused space to tap. There are SO many ways to do this. Fun stuff.
Jason
Hi RacinJason1971,
One reason for suggesting the ripol was your request for "...condo dB levels." Another reason was "...must be considerate of neighbors...".
Finally, I have read quite a few raving reports about the sound quality of dipole subwoofers in general, and thought your application might well benefit from this general approach. Only open baffle subwoofers will null out the pressure generated inside the room they are operating in. The ripol (in N-baffle [single driver], or W-baffle [dual drivers]) has the additional capability of loading the driver through the reduced output surface front chamber, and to lower the in-sytem resonance frequency.
All other subwoofers are in one form or another designed not to do that (null out that is, they pressurize the room), and there go the neighbours. Tapped horns will definitely generate prodigous amounts of output, they are designed to utilize both the front and the rear radiation of the driver; lilmike's Insubnia (Anarchy 6.5) TH is a great example of what can be done with that technology in the home on the small end of the scale. There are some LAB12 TH designs around for your "...long, single fold tapped horned for behind the long couch...".: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn.html (you could straighten out that layout for a single fold).
As to the ripol: the link I provided in Post #10 has the necessary practical data in English (for a translation of the rest, maybe google translate can help?). Additionally there is a lot of data on this forum, see:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/50964-ripoles-honey-i-shrunk-dipoles-1-a.html - the first 5 post of this thread provide very basic theoretical background data.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/14179-my-first-dipole-subwoofer-36.html - Post #360 - 384.
I found this link on the HTGuide Forum: HTGuide Forum - Dipol-Cardioid subwoofer, it seems to refer to a "similar" technology: - http://www.kirchner-elektronik.de/~kirchner/DIPOL-CARDIOIDeng.pdf
It looks like Rudolf and Calvin are the resident ripol experts (?).
Anyway, hope any of this helps throwing a light on the subject.
Regards,
One reason for suggesting the ripol was your request for "...condo dB levels." Another reason was "...must be considerate of neighbors...".
Finally, I have read quite a few raving reports about the sound quality of dipole subwoofers in general, and thought your application might well benefit from this general approach. Only open baffle subwoofers will null out the pressure generated inside the room they are operating in. The ripol (in N-baffle [single driver], or W-baffle [dual drivers]) has the additional capability of loading the driver through the reduced output surface front chamber, and to lower the in-sytem resonance frequency.
All other subwoofers are in one form or another designed not to do that (null out that is, they pressurize the room), and there go the neighbours. Tapped horns will definitely generate prodigous amounts of output, they are designed to utilize both the front and the rear radiation of the driver; lilmike's Insubnia (Anarchy 6.5) TH is a great example of what can be done with that technology in the home on the small end of the scale. There are some LAB12 TH designs around for your "...long, single fold tapped horned for behind the long couch...".: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/143714-lab12-tapped-horn.html (you could straighten out that layout for a single fold).
As to the ripol: the link I provided in Post #10 has the necessary practical data in English (for a translation of the rest, maybe google translate can help?). Additionally there is a lot of data on this forum, see:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/50964-ripoles-honey-i-shrunk-dipoles-1-a.html - the first 5 post of this thread provide very basic theoretical background data.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/14179-my-first-dipole-subwoofer-36.html - Post #360 - 384.
I found this link on the HTGuide Forum: HTGuide Forum - Dipol-Cardioid subwoofer, it seems to refer to a "similar" technology: - http://www.kirchner-elektronik.de/~kirchner/DIPOL-CARDIOIDeng.pdf
It looks like Rudolf and Calvin are the resident ripol experts (?).
Anyway, hope any of this helps throwing a light on the subject.
Regards,
More ripol links:
Apparently I missed the edit window again, more links:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/108893-my-ripole-project.html
and the lautsprechershop in English:
RiPole Subwoofer
Regards,
Apparently I missed the edit window again, more links:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/108893-my-ripole-project.html
and the lautsprechershop in English:
RiPole Subwoofer
Regards,
tb46 - Thanks for that thorough explaination and great links. I took some time to read a bit on this design and I can see why you'd recommend it. It does look to fit my needs pretty well and I admittedly underestimated the response of these open baffle subs.
They look like they would play beautifully. I watched some videos of these and they sound wonderfully musical. They also sound like they wouldn't carry far, which I want but is it enough?
One thing that stands out as a possible con is the lack of output. I saw the pic of the dual sub setups *right* behind the listeners head. Just how limited is the output on these I am wondering. Will one 'ripol' be enough for a 13-foot square area - down too below 30hz? I'm not asking for scary levels but I'd like the ability to make people jump on explosions, etc atleast Headroom is good!
They look like they would play beautifully. I watched some videos of these and they sound wonderfully musical. They also sound like they wouldn't carry far, which I want but is it enough?
One thing that stands out as a possible con is the lack of output. I saw the pic of the dual sub setups *right* behind the listeners head. Just how limited is the output on these I am wondering. Will one 'ripol' be enough for a 13-foot square area - down too below 30hz? I'm not asking for scary levels but I'd like the ability to make people jump on explosions, etc atleast
Headroom is good!
Don't know how well your building is constructed/insulated, but I had to do a bit of research for a pair of music only ~5" 'FR' driver loaded towers [MLTLs] I built for a buddy since he was adamant about not bothering his four neighbors.
Long story short, the tuning wound up being +/- 3dB ~40-12.5 kHz and max mid band peak SPL was only ~85 dB/listening position [LP], so figuring that Ca. being mild like Ga., i.e. apts./condos not all that well sound insulated, I'm guessing these limits will be 'in the ballpark' for you too, so any 'jump factor' system capability would have to either be limited to when everyone else has 'left the building' or you invite them all over for a 'night at the movies'.
Even a long building with many apts. will carry mid-bass/lower mids to the far end. Back in the '60s we lived in the lower left corner apt. in a two story [24] apt. building and I would go home for lunch and crank up Pink Floyd, Iron Butterfly, Steppenwolf, etc. to near live levels of the day ['only' ~HT reference now except with a ~50-60 Hz F3 depending on the recording] since AFAIK nobody else was home.
Well, one day the cops showed up, seems there was a ~shut-in elderly lady living upstairs at the other end I didn't know about that had had her 'fill' of such Devil Worshiper's music and wanted me 'buried' under the jail [or worse], but she would compromise if I would play her favorite country music, so Hank Williams, Hank Snow, the Carters, et al it was until we able to find an affordable house in an area full of like minded young couples to 'party hearty' with...........
GM
Long story short, the tuning wound up being +/- 3dB ~40-12.5 kHz and max mid band peak SPL was only ~85 dB/listening position [LP], so figuring that Ca. being mild like Ga., i.e. apts./condos not all that well sound insulated, I'm guessing these limits will be 'in the ballpark' for you too, so any 'jump factor' system capability would have to either be limited to when everyone else has 'left the building' or you invite them all over for a 'night at the movies'.
Even a long building with many apts. will carry mid-bass/lower mids to the far end. Back in the '60s we lived in the lower left corner apt. in a two story [24] apt. building and I would go home for lunch and crank up Pink Floyd, Iron Butterfly, Steppenwolf, etc. to near live levels of the day ['only' ~HT reference now except with a ~50-60 Hz F3 depending on the recording] since AFAIK nobody else was home.
Well, one day the cops showed up, seems there was a ~shut-in elderly lady living upstairs at the other end I didn't know about that had had her 'fill' of such Devil Worshiper's music and wanted me 'buried' under the jail [or worse], but she would compromise if I would play her favorite country music, so Hank Williams, Hank Snow, the Carters, et al it was until we able to find an affordable house in an area full of like minded young couples to 'party hearty' with...........
GM
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