Hey guys, just signed up cause it looks like you guys are all switched on and know what your talking about!!
I am wanting to build a new sub box for my Logitech z5500's, which i beleive is a TangBand WT-644F driver. I have read around a fair amount of info about what I need to do, and how to calculate stuff, but I have run into some problems, and am getting differing results from different programs as to how big the actual box should be etc. and am just getting stuck and am no longer confident.
I have access to all the tools etc. I require to do basically anything associated with making it up, but yeah, just basically need a hand.....
p.s. I am not really that knowledgable when it comes to Qts and Sd's etc. etc. but I think I can follow along. been through a number of threads on here, and I think I was hanging in there....either that or just completely confused!!!
Thanks guys!!!!
I am wanting to build a new sub box for my Logitech z5500's, which i beleive is a TangBand WT-644F driver. I have read around a fair amount of info about what I need to do, and how to calculate stuff, but I have run into some problems, and am getting differing results from different programs as to how big the actual box should be etc. and am just getting stuck and am no longer confident.
I have access to all the tools etc. I require to do basically anything associated with making it up, but yeah, just basically need a hand.....
p.s. I am not really that knowledgable when it comes to Qts and Sd's etc. etc. but I think I can follow along. been through a number of threads on here, and I think I was hanging in there....either that or just completely confused!!!
Thanks guys!!!!
im not sure what type of box i want, at this stage i like the ported system (cause it looks easier, the transmission line system, and i really like the idea of the driver being hidden in a 4th order bandpass system (but not sure if that affects the sound itself, and also its a 10'' driver so might make the box too big?
its for a bedroom, so not sure if that makes any difference, and im more or less making it just to keep me busy
, but i want to make it right so that it actually does its job. Im not in the know at all unfortunately, just know how to use tools haha.
And i havnt done much at this point, just alot of calculations which has given me box volume calculations of:
62.54litres, 61.5l, 52.88l, 50.54l, 41.38l (which is closest to the current, stock box design vol) and a random one at 99.2l (Note: all these are for ported systems)
I got all of these figures using random calculators on the net, and calculating T/S values through how to guides etc. on the net also.
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/wt-644f.htm is what i believe is the speaker, sourced other info from http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/148656-enclosure-tb-wt-644f-z-5500-10-a.html as well as other sources.
I guess i have over complicated it by doing too many calculations etc, so now i have no idea where i should be looking. im thinking around the 56-58l area?
also any tips on adding bits to the box would be great.
p.s. some calcs i have on hand are...Qes(d)=.370, Qms=10.14, Re=6.4ohms, Fs=32Hz, Le=4.54mH, Dia=24.6cm, Xmax=10mm....which i think means, Sd=0.0475m^2, Vd=0.0005m^3, CMS=.24mm/N, mmd=103.1g, BL=18.9Tm, RMS=2kg/s, Qes=0.37, Qts=0.357, Eff=90.2, Sens=91.1
these above value are based on 77l, and dont ask me what most of the letters mean! i have no idea
its for a bedroom, so not sure if that makes any difference, and im more or less making it just to keep me busy
, but i want to make it right so that it actually does its job. Im not in the know at all unfortunately, just know how to use tools haha.And i havnt done much at this point, just alot of calculations which has given me box volume calculations of:
62.54litres, 61.5l, 52.88l, 50.54l, 41.38l (which is closest to the current, stock box design vol) and a random one at 99.2l (Note: all these are for ported systems)
I got all of these figures using random calculators on the net, and calculating T/S values through how to guides etc. on the net also.
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/wt-644f.htm is what i believe is the speaker, sourced other info from http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/148656-enclosure-tb-wt-644f-z-5500-10-a.html as well as other sources.
I guess i have over complicated it by doing too many calculations etc, so now i have no idea where i should be looking. im thinking around the 56-58l area?
also any tips on adding bits to the box would be great.
p.s. some calcs i have on hand are...Qes(d)=.370, Qms=10.14, Re=6.4ohms, Fs=32Hz, Le=4.54mH, Dia=24.6cm, Xmax=10mm....which i think means, Sd=0.0475m^2, Vd=0.0005m^3, CMS=.24mm/N, mmd=103.1g, BL=18.9Tm, RMS=2kg/s, Qes=0.37, Qts=0.357, Eff=90.2, Sens=91.1
these above value are based on 77l, and dont ask me what most of the letters mean! i have no idea
Okay, a low Qts (~0.3) indicates you'll get more bass extension from a ported box.
I'd try modelling a ~60L cabinet tuned to 29Hz (pulling numbers out of the air here), see how that looks on winISD.
You're looking for a reasonably flat response to ~30Hz (the driver could go lower, but would require a specialised cabinet), then the response will drop.
A bigger cabinet increases output around port tuning (so a really big box will give a peak at 30Hz). Play with port tuning a little (see what 80Hz tuning looks like, see what 15Hz tuning looks like), but I'd expect ~30Hz to be somewhere near.
I'd try modelling a ~60L cabinet tuned to 29Hz (pulling numbers out of the air here), see how that looks on winISD.
You're looking for a reasonably flat response to ~30Hz (the driver could go lower, but would require a specialised cabinet), then the response will drop.
A bigger cabinet increases output around port tuning (so a really big box will give a peak at 30Hz). Play with port tuning a little (see what 80Hz tuning looks like, see what 15Hz tuning looks like), but I'd expect ~30Hz to be somewhere near.
ok, i have winISD pro alpha, if that means anything, and im not super sure how to use it properly. but im struggling to find the values to input it into the new driver section. whenever i click it to save, it brings up a whole list of 'Parameter error list' saying the consistency failed, i dont get much further than that....
also when i exit the program it comes up with an error saying access violation at address?
not sure what ive done wrong....also you mentioned the possibility of a specialized cabinet. how so?
thanks!
Attachments
I ended up uninstalling winISD pro alph cause when i went to open the help file it said it wasnt installed on this computer or something, after reinstalling and uninstalling a few times i just d/l winISD 0.44 which i think was a beta version and used that, looks a lot less involved......
what exactly should i be looking for in the results, and should i try and get winISD pro alpha working?
what exactly should i be looking for in the results, and should i try and get winISD pro alpha working?
ok wait up, i re-downloaded alpha, and got it to work, without the help file, just left the fields blank and it figured them out for me, although they were pretty much exactly the same as I had entered previously haha :s
ok i've got the graph, chose some 'something butterworth' setup thingy, and this is what i got...
wait... how do i show my results?
wtf why doesnt it work
ok i've got the graph, chose some 'something butterworth' setup thingy, and this is what i got...
wait... how do i show my results?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
wtf why doesnt it work
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........
wait... how do i show my results?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
wtf why doesnt it work
Opening the link in a new tab tells me you've to be signed in to windows live to see it.
You can attach images to your posts.... Press "go advanced", then scroll down to where it says "manage attachments" - that allows you to attach the files.
qts.fs.vas.re.bl.le.sd.x-mx.pe ,if remeber correctWhen inputting driver parameters in to WinISD Pro alpha the values have to be exact or they are not accepted - read the help file on how to input the minimal amount of parameters, and let the software calculate the rest. Your driver info should be OK then.
offtopic/ has anyone seen this new winisd.it works on win 7(64) whitout crashing when exitting.
and a new gui.
AHA! yes, I thought it was just conflicting with my machine, but obviously is a bug with w7 64b! very good, was frustrating the heck out of me.
ok ill try and attatch this file.
Its my understanding i dont want a peak in the white line, more a gradual tapering off as it reaches 0.0dB?
thanks guys!!!!
ok ill try and attatch this file.
Its my understanding i dont want a peak in the white line, more a gradual tapering off as it reaches 0.0dB?
thanks guys!!!!
Attachments
Yeah, I'll stick with the Pro alpha for now. To get the most out of the new version though, under Options, check off all but the 'force flat' one.
Anyway , the QB3 alignment tends to sound a bit 'boomy' in-room if near a wall or corner, but this driver's very high inductance is causing a rising response through 100 Hz, so is probably OK if it goes low enough for you.
Note that you have to input either the driver's power rating or amp power, whichever is lower, into the Signal Input Power field to find the correct size vent that yields the < ~17 m/s air velocity required for good performance. Due to the nature of this driver's specs, it will be large/long.
GM
Anyway , the QB3 alignment tends to sound a bit 'boomy' in-room if near a wall or corner, but this driver's very high inductance is causing a rising response through 100 Hz, so is probably OK if it goes low enough for you.
Note that you have to input either the driver's power rating or amp power, whichever is lower, into the Signal Input Power field to find the correct size vent
GM
ok im assuming the QB3 is the quasi butterworth. i honestly have no idea when it comes to this section of 'alignment' and what they actually mean. does this refer to a specific physical difference? ie/ drivers in different places around/within the box etc.
if it is a bit boomy, i am in a pretty small room, its my bedroom only about 11m^2 probably, so will be likely within a corner. Alternatively i could build the speaker box into my television unit, so it will be a compartment at the bottom next to drawers etc. although this will vibrate the whole thing yes?
additionally im not sure what you mean about the signal input power and the driver/amp power etc. on http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/wt-644f.htm i can see rated power input = 180W and maximum power input = 360W is this what you refer to?
sorry im pretty hopeless haha
thanks!
if it is a bit boomy, i am in a pretty small room, its my bedroom only about 11m^2 probably, so will be likely within a corner. Alternatively i could build the speaker box into my television unit, so it will be a compartment at the bottom next to drawers etc. although this will vibrate the whole thing yes?
additionally im not sure what you mean about the signal input power and the driver/amp power etc. on http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/wt-644f.htm i can see rated power input = 180W and maximum power input = 360W is this what you refer to?
sorry im pretty hopeless haha
thanks!
You're welcome! Everybody is 'pretty hopeless' about anything technical until they do the necessary 'due diligence' learning all that they can about it. I've been messing with speaker design off n' on for right at 55 yrs now and still don't know it all.
Correct, T/S box design theory is based on electrical filter theory, so a few different basic alignments [box size, vent tuning] were initially derived. They are all just 'snapshots' at different points along a continuous range of alignments though, so are typically just starting points in a computer program these days unless either one knows that a specific electrical filter alignment is what is needed for the app or a neophyte just wants a 'plug n' play' design without having to invest much time in it.
Typically, corner loading in a small room dictates a sealed alignment with a bit of EQ to smooth it out assuming there's enough power on tap and the driver has enough Xmax to handle it. Otherwise, a relatively large cab tuned low along with some EQ is required to get the most bass SPL/extension out of it.
Yes, without some serious mass loading [weight] added to the TV, it may visibly/audibly vibrate when the driver's really pumping it out unless it's a massively built [heavy] unit. Depending on its design, you may can get by with just adding weight to the top of a light weight unit [Ikea or similar] to better load the cab to the floor. Ditto a separate sub cab if not relatively large.
Right, if your amp is higher rated than 360 W, then input 360, otherwise put in the amp's rating. It should dramatically increase the vent's diameter/length and if it turns out to be too big for you, then make it as large as practical and if it audibly 'chuffs' on low notes about all one can do is 'stuff a sock in it', so to speak [damp it] with the understanding that it will roll off its bass response somewhat.
GM
Correct, T/S box design theory is based on electrical filter theory, so a few different basic alignments [box size, vent tuning] were initially derived. They are all just 'snapshots' at different points along a continuous range of alignments though, so are typically just starting points in a computer program these days unless either one knows that a specific electrical filter alignment is what is needed for the app or a neophyte just wants a 'plug n' play' design without having to invest much time in it.
Typically, corner loading in a small room dictates a sealed alignment with a bit of EQ to smooth it out assuming there's enough power on tap and the driver has enough Xmax to handle it. Otherwise, a relatively large cab tuned low along with some EQ is required to get the most bass SPL/extension out of it.
Yes, without some serious mass loading [weight] added to the TV, it may visibly/audibly vibrate when the driver's really pumping it out unless it's a massively built [heavy] unit. Depending on its design, you may can get by with just adding weight to the top of a light weight unit [Ikea or similar] to better load the cab to the floor. Ditto a separate sub cab if not relatively large.
Right, if your amp is higher rated than 360 W, then input 360, otherwise put in the amp's rating. It should dramatically increase the vent's diameter/length and if it turns out to be too big for you, then make it as large as practical and if it audibly 'chuffs' on low notes about all one can do is 'stuff a sock in it', so to speak [damp it] with the understanding that it will roll off its bass response somewhat.
GM
haha yeah, very slowly learning whats going on. verrry slowly.
and i will be making a whole new tv cabinet from scratch, and am planning on making it wall length ~3.5m, and probably 2m tall, so it will be heavy no doubt. im wall mounting a tv smack in the middle of it though, worried the vibrations wont be doing any good.
but i wont be smashing the volume anyway, its more or less for watching movies with the surround sound and gaming. music i wont be playing too loud or ill be getting in trouble....
and to what extent do you mean a 'relatively large cab' will be required. how relatively large is relatively large haha
and i will be making a whole new tv cabinet from scratch, and am planning on making it wall length ~3.5m, and probably 2m tall, so it will be heavy no doubt. im wall mounting a tv smack in the middle of it though, worried the vibrations wont be doing any good.
but i wont be smashing the volume anyway, its more or less for watching movies with the surround sound and gaming. music i wont be playing too loud or ill be getting in trouble....
and to what extent do you mean a 'relatively large cab' will be required. how relatively large is relatively large haha
Well, corner loaded for movies, I'd tune it as low as practical and make a pipe horn [see 'BIB' threads] to get max acoustic gain short of making a complex compression horn, so its size limit would be based on either ceiling height or how much of the lower half of your proposed wall length entertainment center [EC] space you're willing to sacrifice for such a relatively large/long single fold cab. Such a cab doesn't tend to vibrate enough to matter, so can be used as part of the first row of the shelving system if laid on its side.
If this isn't a viable option, then a 3-4 ft^3 cab tuned to around 20 Hz, though due to the 6" diameter/50+" long vent required just in case you either get the opportunity to turn it up and/or use EQ to boost the low end, best to morph it into a reverse tapered TL [TQWT] or even a tapped variant if the XO point is 80 Hz or less, so would need to be folded up to make it fit your EC.
GM
If this isn't a viable option, then a 3-4 ft^3 cab tuned to around 20 Hz, though due to the 6" diameter/50+" long vent required just in case you either get the opportunity to turn it up and/or use EQ to boost the low end, best to morph it into a reverse tapered TL [TQWT] or even a tapped variant if the XO point is 80 Hz or less, so would need to be folded up to make it fit your EC.
GM
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